SCP-2718 / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page SCP-2718.

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Anaxagoras 07 May 2014 23:46

Well, I can't fault your ambition.

Your writing is fine, if rather purple, but this stretches the format to the point where I don't think it can even be considered an SCP any more. This would be less problematic as a tale, I think. It basically is already. The whole thing is truly tremendous buildup to a story and set of revelations that are unclear and unconvincing. There's a lot of effort on the technical elements, but I'm really not convinced that holds together (Bubblesort as a "terrible algorithm"? Geez, O(n^2) isn't bad, especially with a database of a few thousand entries).

This is tremendously ambitious, but its ambitions outstrip the actual content. You've slathered a small plate of admittedly decent pasta with a mountain of whipped cream. I was rolling my eyes by the third paragraph, and I was never given a reason to stop. Sorry, but downvoted.

Aelanna 08 May 2014 17:02

Agreeing with all of the above. "Death must be declared a Keter-class SCP" is something I'd expect from a Saturday morning cartoon, not Foundation fiction.

Alex Zero 13 Jun 2018 17:30

The way I interpreted this, the SCP isn't necessarily death, but the idea death is what 05-11 described it as. The Council collectively lost their minds when they heard what they did, and given that they fear death like they obviously do, perhaps this is because what -11 saw wasn't humanity's fate, but the Council's personal hell. If that was how it was, then their reactions would make more sense, given that this would be their greatest fear imaginable.

Last edited on 13 Jun 2018 17:31 by Alex Zero Show more

Willfred Wallace 07 May 2014 23:59

While I find the concept and the formatting interesting, this just became too melodramatic for a main list entry by the middle for me not to downvote.

There was a lot of tension building up to something sort of predictable and the monologues in there struck me as needlessly full of themselves.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 00:00 by Willfred Wallace Show more

Anaxagoras 08 May 2014 00:03

The buildup is forced, too. I shouldn't be going "get on with it already". Also, this is a very similar gimmick to your SCP-1718, but that at least justifies having the containment procedures be the focus. This is just hamfisted and melodramatic.

JennyZWMD 29 Jun 2015 19:57

Remember when SCPs were memorable and to the point?
Pepperidge Farm remembers…

Devereaux 08 May 2014 00:02

It feels drawn out and somewhat melodramatic, however, I upvoted.

When I read a skip, the one thing that I'll always upvote for is being genuinely frightened. This was the second or third time that has happened. It's been a long time since I've read an article that I felt in my stomach, so good job!

Last edited on 22 Apr 2015 05:03 by Devereaux Show more

Rikoshi 27 Dec 2015 02:53

Yeah, I really liked how unnerving this premise is, at the heart of it, and it's presented in what I feel is a very unique and interesting way.

Does it have the same feel as the 'typical' SCP entry? No, but I feel like if all of them felt 'typical,' that would be to the site's detriment, not benefit.

ProcyonLotor 08 May 2014 00:05

Having had a little while to mull it over, I love this. The technobabble in 1718 always seemed a little much to me, but it fit well here, and the story behind it was good enough to survive without it. I can see how some people can believe it to be an unnecessary format screw or overly melodramatic, but in my opinion, it does what it does damn well. +1

Last edited on 08 May 2014 01:28 by ProcyonLotor Show more

Chubert 08 May 2014 00:08

It might be that might threshold for what constitutes purple is wonky and off, but I feel so long as the language is being used…precisely (?) effectively (?) enough, then it's not purple for me. I felt that the language very much fit the portrayal of the O5 Council-ancient, frightened cabal. I'll also say that "revelations about the true nature of death" are not really my cup of tea, but I feel it was executed well. Honestly, I was expecting some sort of "death is nothingness oh nooooo" revelation, but the actual revelation-damn. The imagery worked for me.

I'm a huge fan of the format screw, if only that it proves that you can really do whatever the fuck you want in an article. For me, a mainlist article is "anything you would get by trying to access a dossier briefing on an SCP object from the Foundation database." And this…is it, I guess :p.

+1

Last edited on 08 May 2014 00:09 by Chubert Show more

(account deleted) 08 May 2014 00:15

*clap* *clap* *clap*

I was ready to downvote the hell out of this and come rip it apart in the comments until I got to the actual recording. Was where this was headed predictable? Maybe. I figured that the dead guy's experiences were deeply unpleasant. But to me, that didn't matter. This was some old-school, nice creepy shit. This is one of my new favorites.

As to some of the above commentary, all I can say is that people on this site have upvoted more pointless format-screws and far more melodramatic stories than this one. There are occasions where weird formatting and dramatic dialogue work, and that's when there's an actual reason for them. In my opinion, if you're going to write a "this is the afterlife" skip, that's a decent reason.

Upvoted enthusiastically, and my compliments, Atreus.

EDIT: Also, the guy running into 106's chamber. In a lesser article, I would have burst a blood vessel from rolling my eyes so hard. In this one? God damn, dude.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 00:19 by (account deleted) Show more

Willfred Wallace 08 May 2014 00:27

My qualms aren't so much that there's melodrama here in general, because, let's face it, with this sort of skip, it's to some extent unavoidable. My problem is that the dialogue is written in a way that makes it needlessly melodramatic. To the point where it breaks me out of the skip and gets me thinking about how this was written to sound theatrically inflated. If others aren't broken out of it, then that's fine. I, however, think some more subtlety would have benefited this immensely.

Deacon_Blues_117 08 May 2014 18:42

Given the ages of the O5s as given in the story, however, purple prose is to be expected. Try reading something written seventy-plus years ago, and you'll find exactly such superfluous wording.

Willfred Wallace 08 May 2014 19:48

Try reading something written seventy-plus years ago

Huh? First of all, there's no indication the events described here happened 70+ years ago or that the article is really written in such a style. Secondly, over-the-top melodrama is over-the-top melodrama regardless of whether the article is masquerading as a period piece (which, as I said, I see no indication of). If it makes sense to you, so be it. However, it personally snaps me right out of it.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 19:49 by Willfred Wallace Show more

Pig_catapult 08 May 2014 23:16

I don't think Deacon means that the events are from 70+ years ago, just that the person relating them talks like it's 70+ years ago.

---

Piffy is an SCP Foundation Moderator, Lv. 9001 Squishy Wizard, and Knight of the Red Pen.

Willfred Wallace 08 May 2014 23:31

So Deacon's saying they talk like old fogies? That still seems like a paper-thin justification/excuse at best to me. Not to mention that it implies a certain pattern of behavior of elderly people which I'm not sure I agree with. Regardless, even with those standards in mind (which I'm still hesitant to apply), some of the lines in there are filled with ballooning melodrama that's cringe-worthy at places.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 23:35 by Willfred Wallace Show more

WhispersInTheDark 08 May 2014 00:28

I liked the initial format screw, and the revelation at the end was terrifying. The problem is, they don't necessarily seem like they belong in the same article, and there's a whole lot of stuff in-between that was a chore to read through. I'm not entirely sure what's supposed to be going on, either. I mean, I'm clear on what happens at the end, but I have no idea what most of the technobabble is about.

Also, there are some serious plot holes with the narrative. For starters, there's a strict rule that the O5s are never supposed to come into contact with anomalous objects. If the method they're using to extend their own lifespans is anomalous, that makes all of them enormous hypocrites, especially since it doesn't really benefit the Foundation as a whole in any way. If the method is non-anomalous, there's no good reason they wouldn't have released it to the general public, or at least to the rest of the Foundation.

More importantly, I find it extremely unlikely that they'd have actually reinstate Roger as an O5 after resurrecting him through anomalous means. They should have contained him right away, or at the very least, given him a strong amnestic and released him from Foundation service (while keeping him under close surveillance). Putting him back in a position of power when he's effectively a revenant just seems like it's asking for trouble.

I think this article would work a lot better if you trimmed it down considerably, and kept a tight focus on the revelation about the true nature of death, since that's the really interesting/horrifying part. Sometimes, less is more.

dankaar 08 May 2014 00:49

The O5's are hypocrites. There's a series I article that is the Fountain of Youth. The O5's only know what it is and are implied to use it on a regular basis. Everyone else thinks its a major biohazardous SCP.

It's SCP-006.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 00:57 by dankaar Show more

Smapti 08 May 2014 00:54

And I would downvote that article for the same reason, because it flies in the face of the overwhelmingly standard depiction of the O5 as competent, dispassionate ordinary human beings who do not ever interact with SCP objects in any way. When you start portraying the leaders of the Foundation as a clique semi-immortal superhumans who hunt down paranormal objects so they can use them for their own personal benefit (and nobody else's) in ways bordering on lolfoundation, it completely breaks the notion of why the Foundation exists.

You can't argue that the Foundation engages in atrocities like 110-Montauk for the greater good when simultaneously presenting it as an organization run for the benefit of a dozen supercentenarians who are afraid of dying.

Chubert 08 May 2014 01:09

I think "clique of semi-immortal superhumans who hunt down paranormal objects" is perfectly fine, but even if it wasn't, that's not even the view that's being present in 006 or this article. Here, it's "semi-immortals who use certain paranormal objects to extend their lifespans so that they can actually contain the rest," which makes perfect sense if you want to make 110-montauk style "greater good" operations a central part of your conception of the Foundation.

dankaar 08 May 2014 01:10

So, you're saying that if you knew of a SCP that extended your lifespan, and you were an Overseer staring down Death's Door, you wouldn't use it? You would trust the world's normalcy to people less than half your age and experience?

The Overseers ARE normal people. That means they also have the same faults of normal people. It's "OK" if THEY use SCPs for personal benefit, because the KNOW what they are doing, right? I mean, if they didn't, the world would have collapsed into anarchy long ago, yes? So what harm is it to sip from SCP-006 every few years? It's not like they're doing it because they're selfish, but because they're the only ones who can protect Humanity from the unnatural.

Yes, its a dumb argument. But it's the one that the Overseers would use to justify their SCP abuse.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 01:13 by dankaar Show more

Smapti 08 May 2014 01:17

No. The current group of thirteen overseers is not an irreplaceable. Civilization will not collapse if one of them retires, and I would expect the Ethics Committee to remove any one of them from their position if they were "sipping from SCP-006 every few years", and I would expect that the screening process stops anyone who thinks of their importance to the Foundation in "apres moi, left deluge" terms from ever reaching a position of authority.

But this is getting headcanon-y.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 01:19 by Smapti Show more

dankaar 08 May 2014 01:23

True, the headcanon bit.

And dropping the discussion before it goes too deep into "nuh-uh" "yes-huh" argument circle because of headcanon differences.

Aelanna 08 May 2014 16:48

True, the headcanon bit.

No. It doesn't make sense from an objective perspective because we will never know what seemingly-benign artifacts secretly harbor negative mind-affecting effects. What if the Fountain of Youth — assuming you allow it to exist in your headcanon — slowly, over the course of a century, slowly turned its users into manic sociopaths with no concern for the survival of mankind? How can you assure that the people who control the most powerful organization in the world are, themselves, not compromised? There is absolutely no reason why the O5s should have trusted an individual enough to let them come back from the dead and have their job back.

I'm downvoting for this, and various other things that stick out:

• "credential token" should probably be something like "security key", as in a RSA authentication keyfob. What else would you be implying?
• Of the three listed sorting algorithms, only one — the stoogesort — is recursive. Of the three, only one — the bogosort — has an unbounded search time; both of the others will eventually complete, so why did we use those to begin with? Also, a quantum bogosort is actually an improvement over the bogosort. Why is he recommending using a more efficient algorithm when the point is for us to delay or prevent its completion? Hell, if we're able to modify a search API on the fly — something that is mind-bogglingly weird to me — why not just break the code so it never completes? None of this makes sense to me as a computer scientist.
• Why a "Behemoth-class" amnestic? What's wrong with the letter-class scale?

Last edited on 08 May 2014 16:51 by Aelanna Show more

WhispersInTheDark 08 May 2014 02:07

I went and downvoted that article, partially because of its implications about the O5s, but mostly because it's just a straightforward fountain of youth, which is really boring.

Anyway, I doubt many people still consider those implications to be a part of SCP canon. It seems like one of those goofy elements left over from the early days of the site, back when half the people in the Foundation seemed to be anomalous in some way or other. The vast majority of SCPs and tales that I've read (for instance, SCP-2950) have indicated that the O5s are simply normal humans who are replaced when they step down, retire, or die.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 03:37 by WhispersInTheDark Show more

(account deleted) 08 May 2014 00:53

For starters, there's a strict rule that the O5s are never supposed to come into contact with anomalous objects.

There's no canon. The O5s can do whatever the author can get away with them doing. Seeing as how we just had a fairly well-received series of tales in which the Foundation is run by a person running an asston of other GoIs, I don't really view this skip as somehow radically outside of the range of how Overseers are portrayed.

This isn't necessarily my portrayal of them, but "strict rule"? No. Not at all.

WhispersInTheDark 08 May 2014 02:25

My problem isn't just that the Overseers are breaking one of their own rules, it's that they're breaking a rule that makes perfect sense and seems necessary for the Foundation's survival. The O5s control the Foundation, and the risk of them being corrupted by some anomalous force is too great. It doesn't make sense that they'd use anomalous objects to prolong their lifespan, because they don't know what side effects might result from the use of said objects. That's what makes the objects anomalous in the first place, they can't be fully understood. How do the Overseers know that the magic potion that keeps them from aging won't also cause them to become radioactive, or result in demonic possession, or implant a subtle memetic command in the back of their minds that wouldn't be noticed until it's triggered?

Also, I feel like the types of people who'd be willing to break such an important rule to extend their own lifespans are exactly the types of people who shouldn't be in positions of power in the first place. As Smapti pointed out, any Overseer who had an "I am the state!" mentality about his role in the Foundation is unfit for the job.

From a narrative perspective, I also think that making the Overseers into immortal superhumans is a bad idea, since it changes the nature of the Foundation from "normal humans containing the supernatural" to "supernatural beings containing other supernatural beings".

Most importantly of all, I don't think that giving the Overseers life extension technology actually contributes anything to the article, especially since the horror of the article is based on the inevitability of death. Much like the format screw and the ridiculously long wall of technobabble, that particular plot point only serves to distract the reader's attention away from the meat of the article.

Last edited on 08 May 2014 03:30 by WhispersInTheDark Show more

Aelanna 08 May 2014 16:50

There's no canon.

Bullshit, there's plenty of canon when it comes to main series SCP articles, which is what this is presenting itself as. O5 Council Members are explicitly stated as not being allowed to come into contact with SCP objects, and main series articles have a much stronger necessity to adhere to the canon information guides.

(account deleted) 08 May 2014 17:08

Unless you and the other staff are about to go and fact-check articles for strict adherence to the guides and unilaterally make changes accordingly, no, there is in fact no canon.

Absent that, what you have are a series of guides with generally accepted precepts, that while logical and adopted for most works, are not immutable laws of fiction on the wiki. You and everyone else are free to downvote for non-accordance with those guides, but what you're referring to is a set of strongly-suggested recommendations. That you happened to be involved in putting them together and proumulgating them, and thus happen to feel exceptionally strongly about them, is utterly meaningless.

There are quite a few articles on the mainlist that violate both standard formatting and majority-held opinions on what the Foundation is. That everyone is suddenly shitting themselves over this one is puzzling to me, but that also doesn't matter. Then as now, the ultimate arbiter is the rating module. Vox populi, vox Dei, and people can just deal with it.

Aelanna 08 May 2014 17:22

I would gladly do so, were I given the necessary permission.

The framework that SCP was built on constitutes a canon, whether you like it or not. The voice of the people might be a strong factor in what works and what doesn't, but it's not the only factor and without going into the months-long argument about it, isn't even necessarily the most important one.

We have guides that were put together with a lot of effort, and I honestly believe that sticking to the canon established there makes for a richer experience. You are free to disagree with that, but you cannot simply handwave all of that material away like it doesn't exist. Just because everything is a mess right now, doesn't mean we can't work to improve consistency.

(account deleted) 08 May 2014 17:40

I would gladly do so, were I given the necessary permission.

Good luck with that.

The voice of the people might be a strong factor in what works and what doesn't, but it's not the only factor and without going into the months-long argument about it, isn't even necessarily the most important one.

According to you, sure. According to me too, to be honest, since there are articles on the mainlist with high ratings that I absolutely loathe. But what you or I personally like to see counts for nothing other than our votes and whatever minds we change with our commentary (I suspect that the influence of the latter is rather small). The most immediate and most powerful measure of quality is article rating. That's the closest we have to objective evaluation.

We have guides that were put together with a lot of effort, and I honestly believe that sticking to the canon established there makes for a richer experience.

Again, and I'm not trying to be a jerk here, what you or I think to be essential to "a richer experience" doesn't matter. At all. The guides are a way to help a writer adjust the odds of success in their favor, but your presentation of them as tablets handed down from Mount Sinai is completely off the mark.

but you cannot simply handwave all of that material away like it doesn't exist.

Sure I can. I and many other authors have done exactly that and have had successful articles. As this article is indeed doing right now.

Just because everything is a mess right now, doesn't mean we can't work to improve consistency.

Consistency is not the only thing we should be striving for. God forbid. There's a continuum of its importance, and in cases where consistency can be bent for the sake of a more interesting article on the mainlist, then it should give way. The point at which consistency is bent and not broken is something that's decided by the readership. I'm comfortable letting the members make that decision.

Aelanna 08 May 2014 17:46

The difference that you're not considering, though, is that staff have an obligation to moderate and guide the community and have, in the past, exercised that power to unilaterally improve the site. The fact that staff loathes to do so doesn't change the fact that it can and has been done.

That is all that will be said on this matter. You've expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine, and in the near future we'll see where all of this goes. Let's stop cluttering up this discussion thread, please.

WhispersInTheDark 08 May 2014 00:31

Also, I find the similarities between this and SCP-1922 intriguing. They both seem to be describing the same phenomena from somewhat different perspectives.

What does the hidden text mean?

Last edited on 08 May 2014 00:34 by WhispersInTheDark Show more

SoullessSingularity 08 May 2014 02:18

+ show block

Roger, price paid, metatithimi thee in paradise.

---

Living the dream, or dreaming the life?

Gerusz 03 Jul 2014 23:48

I guess a space or two is missing.

+ show block

And it's probably mistyped too.

I can't speak Greek (I can read it, but that's all…) but after a bit of spacing and correction, replacing a theta with a tau and following Google's instruction I ended up with this:

Ρωγερ, έχετε καταβληθεί τιμή, σοι μετα τί τiμή στον παράδεισο.

Which now means something like: "Roger, price paid, to thee after what price in paradise"

I might be wrong though.

Smapti 08 May 2014 00:32

The prose in this is way too purple for me, and the format screw is so elaborate as to make it near impossible to read. I strongly dislike the way the 05 are portrayed here, and the "terrifying revelation" that everyone keeps talking about just comes off as silly to me.

CASEwazLYIN 08 May 2014 00:35

I'm sorry if I'm commenting out of place but, I really enjoyed this one… Although it does seem to be more of a tale than an SCP. The wording makes it seem like a O5 Accident- and I was almost frightened when I first scrolled down. (I actually took the time to read through every switch in the SCP name, and the switch of "Dammerung eyes only" to "gold enemy aneurysm".)
One of my only things is, is that the Recording/Discription is a bit long. Dialogue is good in moderation I would say. Perhaps trim it down?

The overall concept of the format is great, I like the break in the regular format. +1 from me.

Chubert 08 May 2014 02:01

(you're not out of place; the reasoning behind your opinion is sound and this is the place to give opinions :))

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