SCP-4004 / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page SCP-4004.

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this is so sad norton play despacito

Communism will win 01 Jul 2018 19:33

A collaboration with kinchtheknifeblade. They did all the Norton stuff and most of the incident logs, I did most of the description and containment and almost all of the components. Thanks to everyone else who helped with this!

First pic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/arlingtoncemetery/39169192412 Public domain, lightly edited by myself.
Second pic: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Emperor_Joshua_A._Norton_I.jpg Public domain.

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if your reading this your gay

Last edited on 01 Jul 2018 20:41 by Communism will win Show more

Re: this is so sad norton play despacito

high_quality_birds 03 Jul 2018 16:57

this article is so compelling and i love it! :DDD

I’m a Yankee Doodle dandy

kinchtheknifeblade 01 Jul 2018 19:35

i'd like to thank a great hippo, djkaktus, roget, ard, communismwillwin (obv), and everyone close to me who helped out w/ this stuff. i have probably forgotten people because i waited too long to add this and i have low short term memory like some dunkass.

i wrote the norton stuff and the history stuff where the guy rambles for a bit. i based gwb pretty heavily on reports that he has his mom's bad temper and is honestly as forthright and heated in private as i'd imagine. i don't think he's stupid, but he does get words fucked up, and that was fun to write. norton was cool, too. the history dude was a pain in the ass, but imo it paid off.

i loved writing every norton part. i love emperor norton more than anything.

Last edited on 05 Jul 2018 19:14 by kinchtheknifeblade Show more

Ihp 01 Jul 2018 19:52

Thoughts

The list really bugs me, because it references a lot of things that aren't explained, or are otherwise nonsensical. For instance:

A modified Mark 4 nuclear bomb. Light, sound, and radioactivity produced by SCP-4000-D99 do not exit an 80m radius, instead being reflected back towards the center of the explosion.

Stored as a 43.1TB executable file inside SCP-4000-M32, which is located inside SCP-4000-β.

We don't learn what M32 is, or why it can store a nuclear bomb as data.

Forces SCP-4000-G35 into a state of constant prayer, immobilizing it so that cerebrospinal fluid extraction may continue.

Same here. We don't learn what G35 is, or why its cerebrospinal fluid is necessary.

At the same time… all of these nonsensical components kind of remind me of the concept of the God Machine from World of Darkness, combined with Warehouse 13. That makes me want to upvote it…

But this line alone makes me conflicted enough to no-vote, leaning towards downvote:

Throughout the Trail of Tears, a regrettable yet sadly necessary event, many objects left in the haste of the natives were taken and utilized.

"The Trail of Tears" and "necessary event" do not mesh in my mind.

After this, the skip gets rather… shall we say, reductionist. I strongly dislike "This one thing caused all of these other things" trope that's presented after Norton disagrees with the atom bomb. History is more complex than that. Plus, the whole "America is at the center of history" is an idea that needs to die— if this idea is meant to be deconstructed/satirical (which may be the case, knowing the two authors), then I fail to see the satire or deconstruction in it.

This is all a long way of saying "I'm no-voting, leaning towards downvote".

Last edited on 01 Jul 2018 19:53 by Ihp Show more

kinchtheknifeblade 01 Jul 2018 19:55

I very clearly don’t think the Trail of Tears was necessary. But an American exceptionalist, who this character is, would think that.

Edit: I’m sorry if that came across as prickly or bitchy I just wanted it on record I was against that.

Last edited on 01 Jul 2018 20:09 by kinchtheknifeblade Show more

TyGently 02 Jul 2018 01:46

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We don't learn what M32 is, or why it can store a nuclear bomb as data. […] Same here. We don't learn what G35 is, or why its cerebrospinal fluid is necessary.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. It's demonstrating the immense scale and complexity of the machine by oblique references to unseen mechanisms, forcing the reader to speculate why these components would be necessary the same way the Foundation is when they're trying to contain this thing without a comprehensive understanding of how or why it works.

After this, the skip gets rather… shall we say, reductionist. I strongly dislike "This one thing caused all of these other things" trope that's presented after Norton disagrees with the atom bomb.

I think this is also intentional and criticized throughout the article. The people containing SCP-4000 are those who believe wholeheartedly in the imperialist mission of the United States. They have no compunction about what they've done, the wars they've waged, the cruelty they've enabled, the cultural artifacts they've stolen to assemble their great device.

Of course, to them, when things start going wrong, do they take responsibility and acknowledge the true complexity of their actions, that they aren't really leading a black and white "crusade" against evil? No, they blame Norton. They are unable to confront the fact that they might be responsible and choose instead to hide behind a scapegoat.

Is the "rise of terror" a result of America's constant destabilization of the Middle East for their own benefit, or is it because Emperor Norton did an oopsie? When a diplomatic standoff nearly destroys the world, should America reconsider their nuclear policies or was it just Norton's fault?

When people start to wise up and criticize the global imperialism of the US, is it because the US has done something wrong? It can't be, because they've never done anything wrong. It's just that their propaganda machine is malfunctioning.

The Foundation doesn't acknowledge the complexity because they're not capable of it.

Ihp 02 Jul 2018 02:13

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The Foundation doesn't acknowledge the complexity because they're not capable of it.

I despise any depiction of the Foundation as a monolithic, incompetent, shallow entity. Do they hold the idiot ball occasionally? Yes, probably more often than they should. But you're telling me that nobody in over 200 years has looked at what they're building and gone "Y'know, maybe we should acknowledge that this is kind of fucked up."

Stories like this seem to forget that the Foundation is made up of people from hundreds of countries and thousands of backgrounds, and that they're, you know, human beings and not every human being is a deluded psychopath, and not every member of the Foundation is an American who would go along with this. And even if they are, again, "Americans" come from a variety of backgrounds— I'm half-Polish, I have friends who are part-Scottish or Irish, I have another friend who has German blood in them, and you're telling me that people who aren't of purely "American" descent wouldn't object?

If you want to critique American Exceptionalism, then excellent, it's a horrible philosophy and deserves to have its nose driven into the dirt until it suffocates. But for the love of god, don't portray the Foundation as idiots while you're doing so.

This alone is enough for me to downvote.

Last edited on 02 Jul 2018 02:18 by Ihp Show more

martianmax 02 Jul 2018 02:42

It's notable that only an extremely small number of people have access to information on 4000, and they're presumably very powerful people (who work for the U.S. government) who get to dictate who else finds out about 4000. Additionally, the interests that 4000 is supposed to protect are *their* interests. I think it's reasonable that little to none of the people who were responsible in-universe for compiling this would object.

Ihp 02 Jul 2018 02:45

…okay, yeah, that's my fault. I have a habit of skimming over the containment procedures, so I missed the whole "Remain in the Pentagon" thing. It's internally consistent, but I'm still not a fan of it. Downvote reverted to no-vote.

TyGently 02 Jul 2018 02:54

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I despise any depiction of the Foundation as a monolithic, incompetent, shallow entity.

This isn't at all what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're too stupid to realize it, I'm saying their organization is inherently unable to deal with this issue due to their history and structure. It's an institutional issue. This much is clearly defined in the article, which also establishes this interpretation of the Foundation as incredibly closely linked to the United States government.

Stories like this seem to forget that the Foundation is made up of people from hundreds of countries and thousands of backgrounds, and that they're, you know, human beings and not every human being is a deluded psychopath, and not every member of the Foundation is an American who would go along with this.

This is a really confusing critique to have considering that there are literally countless examples of this happening all throughout history and every single day today. Institutions regularly commit horrible atrocities completely independent of whether or not each individual member of the institution is a psychopathic monster. Most of them probably just don't critically consider their actions, or believe they're doing the right thing regardless. That is how institutional issues tend to work.

American imperialism is a thing that happened and continues to happen. "But not everyone involved is a monster" has never changed or stopped it at any point, ever. America being a diverse nation has never stopped racist policies at home, nor imperialist wars abroad. If you find that hard to believe, all I can say is that you should do more research.

ModernMajorGeneral 02 Jul 2018 03:14

I agree with this in some ways but disagree with it in others. I don't particularly like the idea of the Foundation, with so many branches, being such an America-centric organisation, and it shouldn't mesh with a lot of headcanons about it being fundamentally internationalist. In those cases, the original point about most of the staff not standing for something so ridiculous is correct (also, I think the above post about institutions committing atrocities misses the point - while institutions with good individual members regularly commit atrocities, internationalist institutions made up of members from many different countries rarely so explicitly push for nationalist goals - unless those institutions have been captured by a superpower, which brings me to the next point).

Clearly, this does make sense if you think the Foundation is something essentially American. This goes against what is portrayed in most 'official' canon literature but is a logical way to interpret the Foundation based on the content you have access to. This works as both a commentary on American imperialism and a jab at the meta state of the wiki, where the 'English wiki' is really more the 'American wiki' where American culture permeates 90% of the articles. However, I question whether 'Foundation = America' is a clever commentary on the cultural blinders of a lot of the writing OR something which unintentionally reinforces America-centric writing on the site, so I'm not sure about it from that point of view.

I also found the Bush dialogue too goofy. While I don't have much time for Bush's policies or Bush as a great statesman and orator, he never came across as especially vulgar to me (as depicted in this article, at least) despite his constant gaffes. The references to 'hellholes' and 'the best people' make me think the author was clearly writing someone else, but thought it was too close to home, or didn't fit with the timeline or whatever.

These parts are shaky and it's a bit on the nose, but it does raise some interesting ideas - novote, all in all.

Icariandragons 22 Feb 2019 19:54

I gotta say I agree with you on a lot of this. I know everyone has their own ideas and headcanons, but fundamentally the Foundation is an international/non-national agency. Sure they want to influence certain governments, but very rarely has the ethics committee deemed atrocities necessary (ie. The Montauk situation). Including that they report to various deities, (in God's blind spot, plus others), I don't think they would allow this to continue. Gotta say downvote purely for the foundation being so closely tied to a single country

djkaktus 01 Jul 2018 20:02

I mean, this is pretty superb.

Dargoo Faust 01 Jul 2018 20:37

Yeah, this just didn't work for me.

The concept behind this was spectacular, and I really commend most of the documentation up to the interview (although I share some of the critique with Ihp above. I nearly lost focus/interest with the huge mass of random artifacts that didn't really need to be explained there), but once the interview hit I nearly lost all my suspension of disbelief.

It came off as almost comical in some of its lines, emotionless in others, and a bit too open with its satire throughout. The characterization of the anomaly itself seemed fine if not a bit too bland, but the dialogue just didn't come off as realistic.

I'm downvoting, which was a hard choice, as most of this is well-written, and has a really awesome message, but the interview log stuck out far too much like a sore thumb.

Decibelles 01 Jul 2018 20:44

GWB may have not spoken exactly like that, but it's still close. He wasn't the best orator.

Dargoo Faust 01 Jul 2018 20:52

"We've brought the middle class so far up well, shit, they don't even know which way's down."

"We're going to go to this bastard's hidey-hole or wherever the hell he is, and we are going to shove a missile so far up his ass he sees Allah fuck his mama."

Again, this was much to comical for me.

It killed the serious tone that the previous parts of the scip had set and the tone set by the final collapsible. I also still feel like the anomaly was given fairly bland lines. There seems to have been so much emotion, pain, and indecision that enveloped the souls within it, but it didn't touch on that nearly as much as it could have.

(EDIT): I would have personally loved to see a log, or even another interview with the scip to give it more characterization and development instead of the log of artifacts within it. I feel like that is a huge lost opportunity, seeing the scip develop as the anomaly does, and its changing feelings towards the country described in more detail than bland observational statements.

Last edited on 01 Jul 2018 20:58 by Dargoo Faust Show more

doormaker 01 Jul 2018 21:26

Johnson and Nixon were infamous for their crude and offensive language behind closed doors, I don't find much surprising or implausible about an interview log which portrays a president as kind of vulgar and dumb.

kinchtheknifeblade 01 Jul 2018 21:28

I do wanna point out that I don’t think Bush is dumb. I disagree with all of his policies on multiple levels, but his frequent moments of misspeaking were mostly understandable and just the result of a guy who wasn’t the best public speaker being taped constantly.

Dargoo Faust 01 Jul 2018 21:34

Not saying either of you guys are wrong. I'm just saying it messed up the tone of the article as a whole, and would have rather had more meaningful looks into the character of the anomaly instead of Bush spitting at it.

(EDIT): Basically, I'm not saying it is unrealistic, just not the right thing for the SCP, at least in my opinion.

Last edited on 01 Jul 2018 21:36 by Dargoo Faust Show more

machiavelli33 03 Jul 2018 09:05

I actually would throw in with Melon on this one, but for dissimilar reasons - I'm positive GWB spoke like this colloquially - to people he was familiar with, to investors, constituents, and coworkers, but I don't feel like he would speak this way *here*.

It's a really unusual scenario - more akin to taking a diplomatic mission to the moon than meeting the press. Heck, I'd venture to say he wouldn't have spoken this way on normal, non-anomalous diplomatic meetings to other countries, or even to meet with governors.

I haven't exactly studied up upon GWB's speaking patterns, so I'm willing to acknowledge that I might be hugely wrong on this. As of right now though, it feels like having him speak to the suspended not-corpse of Emperor Norton attached to a machine that both embodies and enables the current state of the spirit of America, and having him speak to it like he's talking to just anybody, risks it feeling more like a caricature of GWB than GWB himself.

sirpudding 03 Jul 2018 13:49

By most accounts he is colloquial and personal even in official meetings with heads of state. Supposedly people who know him, even political opponents, generally agree that he has a gift for making people feel comfortable in direct interactions. I've read that he remembers people's names and salient personal details even if he had only met them once, and genuinely seems to care about people he interacts with (comparisons to labrador retrievers aren't uncommon). This might even explain some of his political success, given his unimpressive (to be charitable) public presence. One might imagine he tried to communicate with the public in the same way he talks to anybody, but "non-threatening unremarkable understanding dude" is an affect that doesn't scale well.

Last edited on 03 Jul 2018 13:53 by sirpudding Show more

Metridium 01 Jul 2018 20:38

I was thoroughly prepared for this one to be My Pick but you lost me toward the end. I’m just not satisfied with the article’s conclusion. Although it’s funny to think that Norton influenced the 2016 election toward the goal of electing a man who would purposefully destroy the United States. I’m sure that’s not an intended implication, though.

SJolene 01 Jul 2018 21:06

I definitely agree that the big list of objects is a bit too disparate to be satisfying. But the conceit of "reality-altering machine built on beliefs in American exceptionalism rebels against those ideas" is too good to not upvote.

those soldiers died for our freedom

doormaker 01 Jul 2018 21:37

I don't think I would enjoy this article as much if I didn't have a pretty critical view of the USA already, but it's still a good read.

I really enjoyed the list of components, which manages to portray it as both exploitation of innocent lives and as a comically disturbing Rube Goldberg machine.

sirpudding 01 Jul 2018 21:49

The legacy of Joshua Norton is a thing that I spend an inordinate amount time worrying about. I need to think if this torpedos my 001 proposal concept or if it is still workable.

This piece has a profound effect on me.

thebeesinthewalls 01 Jul 2018 22:13

i think my favourite part of this is those last two small footnotes

"we haven't directly murdered those people so we have no idea what this guys talking about" is exactly the kind of disingenuous bullshit an organization like the foundation would put forth. its easy to miss i think but this is the best characterization of the foundation's attitude that ive seen in a while

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