[Discussion] The SCP Sandbox Joining Process
05command Mirror
Following a fairly lively conversation in Staffchat, we're moving the topic here to actually discuss:
Should we change the current sandbox invite system1?
[Discussion] The SCP Sandbox Joining Process
Forum
» Staff Processes / Staff Policy Discussions
» [Discussion] The SCP Sandbox Joining Process
Summary:
"what if admin is hit by bus"
At the very least, get someone else to help Zyn with the process. She is to SCP as Atlas is to Greece, and she deserves a break of some form.
For the record - That was suggested in staffchat, with some people even asking why we didn't add more staffers as admins on sandbox to help with invites.
General note, (from my memory anyway) there were volunteers who offered to help with the invites process. I noted that I will definitely ask for assistance should I not have the time to run daily invites; however, I have not needed to do so yet as it doesn't take much time at all.
Most of the time in the process is just waiting for a dropdown to load, so I just do sandbox invites spaced between answering PMs and forum threads and such.
(For those who don't know, I'm the head admin of SkipIRC and also the person who works most closely with staff in the effort to use the current Sandbox invitation system to keep trolls, ban evaders, and underage users off the site and sandbox.)
As it stands, this is the only technical measure currently in place to prevent users who want to evade a ban from simply creating a new Wikidot account and rejoining the site and sandbox with false information. This is a substantial 'pro' that's missing from OptimisticLucio's list.
Re. the listed cons, there are a few mistakes that I think should be corrected:
It's a very time consuming and unintuitive process to the user - involving going to an official chat, learning how the system works, passing said chat's verification gate, and waiting 1-3 days to actually be added.
A user has to follow the link from the Sandbox join page to https://lounge.bluesoul.net, hit "Connect", and say "Hi, I'd like to join the Sandbox. My username is *username* and my age is *age*."
I don't believe this is particularly time consuming or unintuitive, it doesn't require even passing knowledge of IRC basics, and the only verification gate is whether the user's host is already banned. While the estimate we give users is 24-48 hours, most users are added in less than a day, often substantially less.
The reason this gate was added in the first place (a particularly stubborn troll) has stopped being an issue since.
Although that particular troll has seemingly stopped trying to join the site, the current mechanism continues to catch serial ban evaders who are no less harmful (just less visible.) I'm not going to provide information publicly, but interested staffers can ask Zyn or Mann for more details.
The current system heavily relies on one staffer (zyn) inviting every individual user, and is a particularly egregious example of bus factor on staff.
Zyn is impressively diligent at this, but it's not an example of bus factor because it doesn't require any specialized knowledge. Any staffer with the requisite permissions would be able to handle this. (Which isn't to discount Zyn's hard work, of course! The reason she does it by herself isn't because it's esoteric, it's that (based on conversations she and I have had) it takes a very modest amount of time and energy for her to do. If there are concerns about others having the requisite knowledge, perhaps other staffers could pitch in from time to time.)
Even if it's not an issue for the individual staffer managing invites, the majority of the burden is on the userbase.
Again, it's just
- Click the link to Lounge
- Click connect
- Give Wikidot username and age
which I don't think can be considered unduly burdensome. If a user reads, joins, requests, and leaves, the whole process takes them well under a minute. Changing over to an application similar to the mainsite one would save perhaps 15 seconds on the user's part.
The Chat Guide is fairly long and intimidating, even for users who want to learn IRC.
While I've done my best to make it less intimidating, it can still be a lot at once for younger users who
have never worked with any sort of command line before. That said, I'm not sure it's relevant here since joining the sandbox doesn't require any IRC-specific knowledge, not even a single /command.
The system will become increasingly unmaintainable as more users join the site and more users need to be added to the sandbox, especially since it already is being understaffed.
This is a fair point; it would be helpful if more staffers were available to help out in the official help chat. This applies not just to sandbox requests but all manner of problems that users can run into.
My own recommendation would be to keep the system as-is until the Wikijump migration is complete. At that point, technical staff will have the information they need to create and enforce strong site bans without having to get IRC involved.
It's not so much about how difficult it actually is, because it's actually really easy, it's more about how difficult people perceive it to be. Also, it is a bit of a hassle as staff to relay it from IRC to the sandbox list -not much, just one more thing on the list.
As for security… it's kind of odd that we have a more stringent process for people joining the sandbox than joining the actual wiki? I get that this can help with bans, but you don't have to log onto IRC to join the main site, and I assume the main site would be what we'd really be worried about in terms of trolling and vandalism.
It's not so much about how difficult it actually is, because it's actually really easy, it's more about how difficult people perceive it to be.
In terms of user perception, everything I've seen suggests it's considered less difficult than e.g. finding the passcode to join. (I realize we have different perspectives and I don't want to imply that what you've seen is any less valid than what I've seen.)
Also, it is a bit of a hassle as staff to relay it from IRC to the sandbox list -not much, just one more thing on the list.
If there's anything I could do to assist with this part of it (some sort of bot?) please let me know.
As for security… it's kind of odd that we have a more stringent process for people joining the sandbox than joining the actual wiki? I get that this can help with bans, but you don't have to log onto IRC to join the main site, and I assume the main site would be what we'd really be worried about in terms of trolling and vandalism.
This is a valid point. The current setup isn't ideal. That said, it does work better in practice than it seems like it might on paper. Part of the reason why this isn't readily apparent is that a lot of the security measures tend to stop people before their attempts are visible to anyone. If you're interested in discussing this further, we could do so privately and I could get into more detail if wiki admins give me the OK to discuss security specifics with you.
Part of the reason why this isn't readily apparent is that a lot of the security measures tend to stop people before their attempts are visible to anyone.
This. This, so much.
Also, it is a bit of a hassle as staff to relay it from IRC to the sandbox list -not much, just one more thing on the list.
Could a bot that auto-populates a list address this?
As for security… it's kind of odd that we have a more stringent process for people joining the sandbox than joining the actual wiki?
I assume the main site would be what we'd really be worried about in terms of trolling and vandalism.
The sandbox currently has little-to-no moderation, no voting/rating process, and no immediately noticeable way to detect spam aside from someone actively checking. A couple years ago, before the invitation process was enacted, staff were regularly cleaning severe rulebreaking content off the sandbox (screenshots of examples are available to staff upon request). Most of said content went unnoticed until searched for, and sometimes was PMed to reviewers as trolling/harassment.
I feel like if we make it easier to join the sandbox again, we need to dedicate some staff to moderating it again.
As it stands, this is the only technical measure currently in place to prevent users who want to evade a ban from simply creating a new Wikidot account and rejoining the site and sandbox with false information. This is a substantial 'pro' that's missing from OptimisticLucio's list.
I swear to god, this somehow did not come up once during the staffcord conversation, where all of these pros and cons came form. Regardless, I'm pointing towards Jerden's point of how joining the Sandbox is harder than the mainsite.
I swear to god, this somehow did not come up once during the staffcord conversation, where all of these pros and cons came form.
I believe you. It's non-obvious except to the handful of people who are directly involved in it.
My own recommendation would be to keep the system as-is until the Wikijump migration is complete. At that point, technical staff will have the information they need to create and enforce strong site bans without having to get IRC involved.
I am in agreement with this. It takes a lot of behind-the-scenes work to moderate a writing community, and wikidot's current setup doesn't really make that moderation easy or efficient.
I agree with Kufat's recommendation completely. An age-appropriate user would not find it more difficult to join the sandbox than join the site. Finding the password has obviously shown to be difficult. Work around wikidot.
EDIT: sorry, there was a post here, but it occurred to me that I don't know anywhere near enough about what's been going on behind the scenes here lately to give anything but a gut feeling opinion, and that's not particularly helpful. Sorry for wasting your time, have a nice day.
I see questions in the forums all the time about people asking how to join the sandbox, which either means users are genuinely confused, or they are intimidated to join chat. This was something I had to put up with almost a year ago now, and I remember feeling uncomfortable jumping into a random chat room just to get permission to draft on the wiki. Overall, I'd argue the process is a bit over-complicated right now.
Also, if Zyn had no help in accepting all the sandbox invites, that is an excessive amount of pressure put onto one admin. Like
Ihp said, at the very bare minimum we should increase the number of people who are capable of letting people onto the sandbox. I don't know how the process is done, but I'd imagine accepting all those invites is monotonous, and irresponsible to put onto one person.
e: After reading over the O5 thread, I do agree with the pros brought up, but I still stand with the point of it being over-complicated.
where we landing? not tilted! ッ
Based on what Zyn has said, the process takes upwards of 3 minutes max and only that long if there's a lot of people trying to get into the sandbox. The max number of requests on the list when she does her sweep of the site is 10. Right now the issue is less the number of requests, but that process of going through IRC first.
This is a good point. We should probably have highlighted any statements from Zyn on the accepting process before we brought this up.
where we landing? not tilted! ッ
I see questions in the forums all the time about people asking how to join the sandbox, which either means users are genuinely confused, or they are intimidated to join chat.
The sandbox instructions were recently updated to make the join process more straightforward. If that's not sufficient, we could add screenshots/visuals?
Also, if Zyn had no help in accepting all the sandbox invites, that is an excessive amount of pressure put onto one admin.
I don't know how the process is done, but I'd imagine accepting all those invites is monotonous, and irresponsible to put onto one person.
Sending invites on wikidot is copypasting a name into a box, clicking a button to search, and clicking another button to invite. I personally wouldn't quite call it monotonous unless I'm processing dozens of names, but the day-to-day number of invites hasn't (in recent memory anyway) exceeded 15 in awhile. Of all the tasks I do on the site, it requires the least amount of brainpower.
Like Ihp said, at the very bare minimum we should increase the number of people who are capable of letting people onto the sandbox.
I'm fine with this, since it does make sense to have at least one backup if I happen to be abducted by fairies or turned into a cat. That said, it's very easy to send invites, so in the event I wasn't able to send invites, it wouldn't be hard at all to find someone else to handle invites.
The sandbox instructions were recently updated to make the join process more straightforward. If that's not sufficient, we could add screenshots/visuals
This should be good. Some screenshots and pointers always make it a little easier like in the IRC Basics.
I don't have much to say. Agreeing with Ihp, best thing you can do is add more staffers to help Zyn. For all the time she's been on staff, she's carried a lot of work.
— Roundabout.
speaking as a user with a decently new wikidot account, i've never bothered with applying for the sandbox specifically because of this application process. it's easier and more convenient for me, somebody who hasn't used irc in years but is on discord on a daily basis, to use alternatives like the scpd sandbox. that said, the issue of needing to use irc will soon be resolved by the existence of the discord, so i suppose it doesn't matter too much.
I also wanted to respond to:
it is a minor boon to staff for a major inconvenience to most users.
We're talking about something that takes perhaps 30 seconds longer than filling out a Wikidot site app with one's age. In terms of effort it's somewhat greater than sending a tweet but well below signing up for a library card. When I think of major inconveniences, I think of things that take hours to address or cost a significant amount of money to resolve. This barely rises to the level of a trivial inconvenience, in my opinion.
Edited to add:
If staff wants to make it as easy as possible for users to join the sandbox, without user willingness or ability to read and follow basic directions as a bar to entry, why not get rid of the site passcode too?
If this is still timely, I'll say a word or two.
1) I suppose this is a matter of perspective/opinion, but I really don't feel like the Sandbox Application process is quite the crucible it's been made out to be here. As has been said above, it's not so time-consuming / unintuitive, nor should it provide much more difficulty to a user than to parse the required reading and instructions for joining the wiki itself. Frankly, the way some of these points read to me is like there's just some notion that "IRC is old and stinky" and kids don't like it(?)
2) Perhaps the most significant hurdle in this that I have seen myself is: when users come into #Site17 looking to apply to the sandbox, and there aren't any staffers currently active to immediately help them. Probably this is only typical during the "off-hours" of chat (i.e.: overnight in North America), but I dunno for sure.
Naturally, there's only so much one can ask of an entirely volunteer-run online community for casual creative writing. And I don't think anyone is genuinely positing that the moderators are imposing arbitrary hoops for users to jump through, just for their own ego or personal amusement. So where is the balance point between the expectations of a user on this wiki from the people who work to keep it running, and the expectations from the staff on these users to follow the rules and systems in place and have a certain amount of patience for the reality of things?
/forum/t-14568687/discussion-the-scp-sandbox-joining-process#post-
page revision: 2, last edited: 15 Jan 2023 15:06
