SCP-5292 / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page SCP-5292.

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Ralliston 03 Apr 2021 16:32

Well, this took longer than it should have, but now it's finally here — the origin story for Site-120, as well as 1/3rd of worldbuilding required for me to finally make the goddamned Site-120 dossier I've been putting of for a couple of months now.

Firstly, I'd like to thank my wonderful critters, which helped me figure this thing out: Doctor Fullham | R4_EX | Dysadron | Impperatrix | HarryBlank | basirskipreader.

Secondly, I'd like to thank HarryBlank (again), who has been a massive inspiration in writing this and my other recent works. When I read The Good Work written by him, I knew I had to do a Site origin story for -120. But that's the only tip of the iceberg of inspiration — thank you for writing, friend.

Thirdly, I'd like to thank Hellylessa for giving Alistair Vemhoff his name.

The definition of Yesod is an edited version of the one present in Nagiros's Comprehensive List of Esoteric Classes. SCP-5292-2's speech in the first interview is inspired by that of Phthonus's from Tanhony's SCP-5167. The "All access is permitted and encouraged." line was inspired by the line in the header present in Rounderhouse's Proposal. The table showing the damage done to Provisional Site-120 and its extent was inspired by the one present in djkaktus's SCP-3812. The code for the book-like div taken from HarryBlank's SCP-5238.

"But Ralliston," you ask, "why is there prose in this SCP?"

The entire article is, in-universe, a slot designed solely to tell the story of Site-120's establishment and be a sort of lesson towards everyone new — and what better way to do it than to add "fabricated prose for personnel reading ease?"

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~ come to my authorpage for more site-120 content! ~

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Last edited on 03 Apr 2021 16:33 by Ralliston Show more

Riemann 03 Apr 2021 17:53

I appreciate that this is the style of article that works for some people. It's a very HarryBlank-style piece: long, character filled, servicing world building and the ongoing narrative being weaved together over several entries. It's a style with a lot of strengths when presenting an engaging, single-article narrative at the same time.

It also means that it's got the same weakness as that style - the potential to lose focus on the single-article story - and I feel that really bleeds through here. This quickly collapses under the weight of its own conceit, and the frequent lampshading only serves to make the shortcomings more obvious.

out of deference to the mods

1. It's too long. Like, way too long.

While I'm sure this issue may be mitigated for people who are familiar with 120 in other works, as someone reading for the first time, I feel like the article is more preoccupied with dropping lore than getting me interested in what's actually going to happen. I'm presented with "extra dimensional library and ghost dude who tends to it", which isn't actually all that interesting to begin with. This sort of leads to the second problem -

2. Lampshading.

As I'm reading the first interview, I'm starting to think "wow Rivera's being really hostile, moreso than the Keeper". And then the next three paragraphs are the author directly acknowledging this. And this keys me off to the fact that Rivera's character is just "angry and wrong" and never meaningfully changes. Sure, she gives a movie speech before she dies, but it's not so much her growing as a character as it is "People normally give speeches at this point in a narrative".

And this lampshading extends to the conceit of including prose so as to "[give] the entire context of Site-120's establishment and the story surrounding it, as per the Director Council's request."

Within the confines of this article, I have learned nothing from the prose that could not have been presented in a more believable way. It appears that the prose exists, in very broad strokes, to fill out some characters and inform me that the site was attacked by fae.

But the article doesn't actually do the work to describe to me why this is necessary or important, so the end result is that this report is just filled in with what amounts to fan fiction of historical events? Why does a Site-120 employee need to know that Rivera is really angry about having to report to Vemhoff? Given the themes of the importance of stories in this work, and the fae's historic connection to stories, it's a real missed opportunity to weave these elements in beyond a surface level.

Maybe the anomaly of Site-120 relates to cyclical stories unfolding around it, and informing the people stationed there of the story beats can help them identify when the cycle is beginning again. Maybe Site-120 can only be referenced in a greater narrative. But the article doesn't engage with these ideas or ever really justify being mostly prose.

3. Time Period

You have managed to set a story in Poland (well, we'll get to that), in the middle of WWI, and somehow ignore the endlessly fascinating ways that those two could interact. It's World War One! A war that largely arose from a thorny and tangled web of alliances and secrets and national interests that nonetheless do not make a single impact on the story, which leads me to wonder why this is set in 1916 at all? And it doesn't end there either, the article is filled with weird anachronisms, things like

I… I think it will be best if I just attach the file below.

Which seems to be in reference to a video transcript stored as a digital file? Not to mention, Poland didn't exist as a country till 1918 (yes there was a German controlled puppet regime), and the territories that would become Poland comprised most of the eastern front of WWI, which seems like it could effect this story in all sorts of interesting ways.

4. Intent

This is the weakest one by far because it's basically me guessing at the author's intent, and that's why it's so far down on the list. But if I had to guess, I'd say that this SCP was written to help develop backstory and worldbuilding for existing articles, as well as move the chains for future stories involving Site-120. And there's nothing wrong with that! But I'm of the mind that articles need to be engaging on their own terms first and foremost, and this one really felt like it was more interested in being support for other articles than creating an engaging and thrilling story of its own.

Overall I feel like this is an ambitious article that doesn't really know where to hone its focus.

Last edited on 03 Apr 2021 21:48 by Riemann Show more

Grigori Karpin 03 Apr 2021 20:31

I really don’t think it’s appropriate to throw shade at other authors unrelated to this article in the crit of this article.

Riemann 03 Apr 2021 21:36

Pardon? Harry's a talented author with a style that (I feel) trends towards the types of work I described - "long, character filled, servicing world building and the ongoing narrative being weaved together over several entries."

None of those are bad things, and by and large I think he's quite good at balancing them together with compelling individual stories.

I've changed the text that I think you were referring to to read less as throwing shade, which was not my intent.

Last edited on 03 Apr 2021 21:49 by Riemann Show more

Ralliston 03 Apr 2021 20:33

All of this is definitely fair and very good criticism, and I'd like to thanks a ton for that — a couple of things though:

But the article doesn't actually do the work to describe to me why this is necessary or important,

Well, I like to headcanon the Foundation is big on morals with its employees — and what better way to do it than to show a perfect historical example of "hey guys, remember to like, you know, work together and don't try to think you're better off alone" (bad paraphrase, but you get the point :P) to potentially strengthen those ties?

This is the weakest one by far because it's basically me guessing at the author's intent, and that's why it's so far down on the list. But if I had to guess, I'd say that this SCP was written to help develop backstory and worldbuilding for existing articles, as well as move the chains for future stories involving Site-120.

Absolutely. It's, as I kinda mentioned in my author post, 1/3rd of some of the lore surrounding the Site, which is in fact a thing I'll mostly use as reference going further on — which actually nicely brings me to point 3. Well, it's worldbuilding — and it's worldbuilding I will use in further articles which will, in fact, mention these elements. Again, it's what I'd consider a streamlined lore-dump for further reference.

Also,

Which seems to be in reference to a video transcript stored as a digital file?

Nope — it's a transcript of an event the characters were able to transcribe through the usage of rituals "replaying" the events visually, but I'll change the wording there to signify that better.

Thanks a ton for the comment again — means a lot!

Last edited on 04 Apr 2021 14:28 by Ralliston Show more

Riemann 03 Apr 2021 21:43

Well, I like to headcanon the Foundation is big on morals with its employees — and what better way to do it than to show a perfect historical example of "hey guys, remember to like, you know, work together and don't try to think you're better off alone" (bad paraphrase, but you get the point :P) to potentially strengthen those ties?

That's fair, and I hadn't considered that angle! I still think that in and of itself is not enough for me to justify the prose, but I understand where you're coming from.

Again, it's what I'd consider a streamlined lore-dump for further reference.

That's great! I think it's probably clear that it's not a style that works for me, but if you enjoy writing it and other folk enjoy reading it then that's a lot more important than satisfying a grouch like me.

Nope — it's a transcript of an event the characters were able to transcribe through the usage of rituals "replaying" the events visually, but I'll change the wording there to signify that better.

Ah - my bad, I see it's changed now!

Two small things

Pearden 04 Apr 2021 01:41

1- “the mines” in Silesia is too generic imho- is there only one set of mines in Silesia? Even the [redacted] mines would be slightly more believable. This is a nitpick.

2- I’m fascinated by the idea of a FAE language but isn’t that dangerous? What if those who live in the place where the road travels through woods have names that are recorded in the books inside? Does that have implications I’ve missed?

General feedback is I loved it but my ADHD is not letting me get through the middle part right now. Long, good. But maybe too long, despite how good it is.

Great work, upvote.

Re: Two small things

Ralliston 04 Apr 2021 19:11

1. Fixed, thanks for the catch! ^^
2. These aren't the Fae after the Factory Genocide — these are the ones that weren't slaughtered there (aka those that didn't become those that wander forever in woods beyond our world), so the problem doesn't exist.

Thanks a ton for the kind words!

TL333s 05 Aug 2021 01:33

I feel like this is the third skip I've read in the last week that takes place in Częstochowa. c.c What's with that place?

I felt like some of the dialogue was anachronistic, but given that it's all in-universe historical fiction, it's not enough reason not to upvote a good article. +1

Ralliston 06 Aug 2021 09:27

I feel like this is the third skip I've read in the last week that takes place in Częstochowa. c.c What's with that place?

Site-120's there, and since I write almost only about it… :P

Thank you for the read and the kind words ^^

Habdash 06 Sep 2021 20:04

This would be a decent Tale, but it's really not focused enough to be an SCP. Downvoted.

Maxyfran73 21 Sep 2021 11:59

Ahhhh, this is a difficult one. I really like the worldbuilding made for Site-120; I remember being quite intrigued by the hub page, but… This isn't the way to do it. The execution leaves a lot to be desired: I don't like that whole 'this would be better as a tale' sentiment, but you effectively wrote a tale and stuck it to the article. I feel like changing the order of the parts here, starting with the idea of the library being Site-120 and then going on the history of it would have made everything flow much better. As it stands, it reads a story with a somewhat dissatisfying end.

As for the rest, I'd just make the same points as Riemann: The writing feels rather anachronistic, with this story happening during WW1 on not-anymore-Poland (Although this is a fairly minor thing).

Rivera being so irrationally angry breaks the tone of the article in my opinion; she feels almost fake as a character; she's there to get angry, and then be right, and then die. She adds very little otherwise, and as I said first, it ruins the tone of the rest of the piece.

I love what you've done with this world you've been writing, but I do not like the way this article was written: It could have been done in a much better way.

-1

Alten 29 Dec 2021 18:37

The story is great, but the worldbuilding doesn't focus on the SCP itself; instead, it focuses on the site's history. Seconding Habdash - a main list article needs to make the actual anomaly interesting, but instead the story built up the Free Port.

-1

UraniumEmpire 26 Apr 2022 04:12

This suffers from similar issues to the proposal, where a lot of it could stand to be cut to make for something cleaner. I'll admit that by the latter half of the article, I was enjoying it a fair bit more than the first half.

The prose and the dialogue feel like they need another run through. Felt particularly clunky.

The ending felt forced. It didn't feel like the piece as a whole threaded those themes through.

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… and I'm not Robert Frost.

Ralliston 26 Apr 2022 17:42

Honestly looking back 5292 comes from a very very awkward place in my writing — that weird spot where I was good enough to get something to survive but not to get something to be better than "meh", and this… yeah, this is very very much "meh". It's a shame this is one of the pieces that build up the funding of 120 because it's kinda embarrassing from a future perspective and I have honestly zero energy to re-write it. So yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from and agree with almost anything lol. Thanks a ton for the comment because opinions like these are what will hopefully motivate me to one day actually rewrite this one.

Sidd dives into AETWMA, part 1

Siddartha Alonne 16 Jun 2022 22:20

Honestly, I was ready to give this a downvote until the last email. The speech was… """embracing""", in some way? It felt nice. I didn't see the "prose in-universe" part coming, it was a cool gimmick but that I… sincerely hope to not see again, ahah.

+1

tapnek 04 Nov 2022 23:18

Aside from the implications of World War I not being explored, I find the language used by Rivera to be kind of anachronistic. She uses the word "fuck" a little too liberally for someone from the 1910s, and I don't think the word "motherfucker" existed much during that decade. I could be wrong, but the harsh language she uses doesn't feel right.

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