So… I'm only seeing two things. Does that qualify this for deletion? Or is this gonna be one of those "kept around for posterity" things?
Agent Diogenes' Personnel File / Discussion
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This is the discussion related to the wiki page Agent Diogenes' Personnel File.
As far as I know the rule is that you need 3 pages to create a member page, but you are allowed to keep it even if one or two gets deleted later.
Given how old the page is, yeah, it's probably kept around at least partially for posterity.
Generally it's best to create a member page when one has three articles that are rated as higher than single digits, to be on the safe side.
As long as they still have positive articles, even if they lose one, they get to keep the page.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I mean I wrote those articles when I was maybe 15 and did it in a dead rush just because I wanted my own page (STRIKE A POSE) if any of them are still around I'd be amazed.
I vote destroy it all. Actually I don't care, and the idea of being posterity is kinda cute.
Question, even though this is old as fuck; would replacing "s/he" with "they" be a viable option, or is there a more specific reason for this?
bleh im going regret all this post
Wouldn't it be possible to identify Diogenes gender by examining her/her chromosomes?
Space is a whole lot of stuff and a whole lot of not-stuff — charles sagen
I mean biological gender (i.e. xx versus xy).
Space is a whole lot of stuff and a whole lot of not-stuff — charles sagen
The "biological gender" you're referring to is usually called sex, and yes, it could be determined genetically, but even then, it's not going to tell you what gender they identify as.
Read over diogenes' response in more detail, because it's actually a very good encapsulation of what's going on. In particular, notice how the standard has changed in a few years' time from s/he to they in these cases.
The point is, there's no need to specifically determine whether Agent Diogenes is male, female, or something else. Since they've touched the gender-switcher multiple times, who knows if the chromosomes can answer that definitively, either?
So, the answer to "Is Diogenes male or female?" is "It doesn't matter, so stop asking." It's not important for the same reason you haven't thought to ask what Diogenes' blood group is.
The sex/gender confusion seems to stem from Victorians being afraid to say "sex" and English having lost most of its gendering.
In German, for example, girls are neutral, youths (male or female) are masculine, and maidens are feminine. None of which has a whit to do with genotype or phenotype.
Incidentally, genotypical sex based on chromosomes and phenotypical sex (i.e. development of primary and secondary sexual characteristics) aren't always strongly correlated, and more complex than simply dimorphic besides.
You can't say "It doesn't matter" when it's a major part of his/her character. S/he could just say "I identify as a male/female/etc" and be done with it. The chromosomes thing could be incorporated into the story, maybe saying that tests are inconsistent or something.
Also, what's this symbol? I can't copy it into my browser or anything to figure it out.
Space is a whole lot of stuff and a whole lot of not-stuff — charles sagen
Dude. Seriously. It doesn't matter.
Sometimes, you have to stop digging.
Just as with skin colour and, as someone already said, blood group, it doesn't matter.
Actually, the major part of the character comes from this phrase:
It has therefore become impossible to determine Diogenes’ gender, and s/he responds to inquiry with raised eyebrows.
Really, needing to go over Diogenes' reaction to determine gender independent of their feelings on the matter is inappropriately intrusive. It doesn't matter because the article says it doesn't matter. That's all. You're not getting more information. There is none.
Plus the author above has basically stated that Diogenes is non-binary and is treated as such in the Foundationverse.
This raises a good question: What IS her blood type. I am interested in finding his blood type now.
(account deleted)(Last-minute note: I tried to restructure this post to not sound salty and/or confrontational, but after three attempts at changing my sentence structure, it seems impossible, so instead I'll just put this note stating that I'm not trying to sound hostile; I'm just trying to see if I am reading your comment's context correctly, though it looks pretty objective.)
The only possible reason I'd object to that is because, out of my own life experience; people who are baffled by gender variance will (and especially people trying to maintain a scientific or academic tone, whether or not they're qualified) use s/he and can be almost fanatically dead set against changing it to they (hell I'm on my way to scoring higher degrees studying this stuff and I still come across colleagues who call me transsexual).
Coming at this from years later, I kind of like to read it as if its being written by someone who doesn't quite get it? (hell I didn't at the time). Not maliciously; they just don't get it, or they're trying to write it 'true to biology,' science, the good old fashioned SCP-way.
So the Foundation — an organization that operates outside of normal society's constraints just by purpose and secrecy anyway, and thus also operates outside of social constraints as well — has the assets and capability to wipe people’s entire identities and implant new ones without notice, clone human beings, access thousands of alternate universes, travel into deep space, destroy society and reset it in under a month with humanity none the wiser, and give their agents small devices that literally anchor down the fabric of reality at the push of a button… but they can't comprehend the existence of nonbinary people and pronouns because it's not scientific?
Edit: Also, I'm always willing to conclude "headcanon difference" about things no matter the topic, but… lord, that'd be a depressing canon.
The best way i can think to respond is maybe they (The Foundation) need to know for the purpose of medical supplies. Biological males respond differently to certain treatments than biological females. Especially in the case of something like amnestics or mnestics it could be an important distinction based on hormone levels to determine dosages to wipe the correct amount of memories. Alternatively, maybe the budgeter just wants to know if they currently need to include feminine hygiene products in Diogenes' medical insurance package.
The tl;dr is that the chromosome makeup of each person isn't a strict XX/XY sort of thing, and that intersex people also exist so trying to sort everyone into "biological males" and "biological females" isn't going to be accurate and possibly even based in misinformation.
Especially in the case of something like amnestics or mnestics it could be an important distinction based on hormone levels to determine dosages to wipe the correct amount of memories.
The issue with this is that amnestics/mnestics as they exist in the Foundationverse are not real, so we have no idea how they'd affect any person on a consistent basis beyond headcanon.
Alternatively, maybe the budgeter just wants to know if they currently need to include feminine hygiene products in Diogenes' medical insurance package.
They could just ask if they really needed it?
this true this true, not a bad point
I think the only reason I kind of like the depressing take is that, as a non-binary and/or trans (who knows) person myself, it's my experience that large organizations aren't the most sensitive and the thought of diogenes dealing with this appeals to me personally purely as a reflection of my own frustrations
but that being said it's a super ambiguous character in a fictional universe and, esepcailly since I haven't exactly been an active contributor for like… ten years, diogenes is pretty divorced from author as far I'm concerned (with the exception of "Diogenes is non-binary," which is clearly pretty important to the character, anything else or surrounding that is justifiably interpretable)
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page revision: 2, last edited: 15 Jan 2023 15:06
