SCP-4612 / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page SCP-4612.

Author Post

Grigori Karpin 19 Nov 2019 21:36

I originally started writing this based on: “Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.” By Nietzsche in the “Parable of the Madman.”

Overall themes: Humanity’s insatiable hunger for progress of knowledge and not worrying about the consequences vs. the reverence required when in the presence of the divine. What if a biologist found the body of god? The first inclination would not be “Let’s worship this,” it would be “Let’s cut this open and see how it ticks.”

This article is followed up by another: SCP-5512

If you're interested in other works of mine: Grigori Karpin's Author Page

▷ Photo information

Site: Author – David Dixon; Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license. (CC BY-SA 2.0)
Door: Author - Dietmar Rabich; licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-SA 4.0)
Eckhart: Image is in the Public domain
Sumerian: Original Photo by Osama Shukir Muhammed Amin FRCP(Glasg) licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International (CC BY-SA 4.0)

Special thank you to Cantigaster_Cephalon, Pedantique, Lt Flops, Jacob Conwell, KindlyTurtleClem, ItsDenali, The Great Hippo and TheMightyMcB for full lengthy crits and helping me through this process of a first article!

EDIT: Changed some images as the source was no longer uploaded. Changed the links here as well. Will be adding the licensing footer tonight.

Hecatoncheires Cycle

Last edited on 10 Nov 2020 08:58 by Grigori Karpin Show more

Site Crit Team

ManyMeats 21 Nov 2019 17:07

This is very large and pretty dense but I have to commend you; nothing here feels like it's a waste of my time when I finished reading.

This piece does suffer from imprecisions in the clinical tone, however, there are no offenses that rise to the level of making me stop or causing me to have to reread.

SCP-4612-A is housed in an underground structure beneath Provisional Site-91, an 18th Century manor in Yorkshire, England, commonly referred to as Eckhart House.

Sentences like this are messy. Part of this is also better suited for the ConProcs rather than buried down in the third paragraph of the description.

Most of the corpses were significantly charred and had warped skeletal structures due to exposure to significant heat.

I'm not sure 'charred' is a clinical word but I am not really going to fight on that. Also, bone doesn't melt so much as fall apart, so anything that's hot enough to "warp" it is going to just turn it into ash as well as any tissue attached to it.

Things like this dot the article; imprecise or inaccurate technical language that holds this piece back from being truly great.

Let me just clearly state, this is good. Although your final entry relies a lot on sensory description, I think your punch is great and this is a very solid +1 from me. This is good. Make no mistake. The amount of cohesion that goes into your whole big picture from the start to the end is at a level well above what I expected from an author posting (what looks to be) their first piece, and is deserving of its positive reception.

Really looking forward to how you grow from here. Good job.

Re: Site Crit Team

Grigori Karpin 21 Nov 2019 17:59

thank you for the kind words, and the feedback, I’ll try to implement some changes along those lines.

You are correct, this is my first piece on the site. I’ve been a lurker for a few years and only joined up recently. But also this went through dramatic revisions (thanks the critters mentioned above) so I’m glad it’s cohesive and interesting to read.

Nagiros 22 Nov 2019 23:08

Added to the comprehensive esoteric classes list under "Uncontained". For future reference, you can add articles on your own after you become reasonably sure it won't be deleted.

Will read in a bit; looks promising so far!

Grigori Karpin 23 Nov 2019 04:48

Good to know, I will keep that in mind going forward. And thanks, I hope you end up enjoying it

Nagiros 28 Nov 2019 18:55

I did, for what it's worth! Loved the Hand-Foundation interaction in particular. Additionally, those collapsible divs work perfect with my author page and an upcoming project. Thanks for those as well!

Grigori Karpin 28 Nov 2019 19:13

Well thank you, but I can’t take credit as I took them from the Advanced Formatting and You that Dr. Magnus put together, with some tweaks.

Edits

Grigori Karpin 24 Nov 2019 10:35

Made some edits based on criticism from Many Meats above and Bluesoul on SCP Cafe, trying to streamline and shorten the piece without losing any of the narrative.

augmentedspartan 27 Nov 2019 16:47

I'm not too sure about this one. My biggest beef is that the themes don't seem to be fully explored, and are kinda just presented without really delving into them. Inhumane experimentation aside, I don't really see the negatives of scientific progress. We don't really have a real life equivalent for dissecting a god.

The other problem is that there isn't any discussion on what a god is. The interview presents the idea but doesn't go into any detail and is just left hanging. What is a god? Is it an omnipotent being? A powerful entity that has affected humanity in some way? Does it have to be fully supernatural? Is just being a powerful creature enough? The interview has both sides mention this concept but they don't go into any detail about either view. Dropping a question isn't the same as exploring a theme.

Then comes the reverence part. If we assume this type of entity is a god, what are the reasons why we should revere it? Just because they are powerful are they exempt of the inherent danger of animal behavior? It its morality universal or are they just as unimportant as any other living being? If it's divine, why shouldn't we use them to improve our species? All animals make their own priority number one, why should humans not do the same? We already dissect and experiment with human corpses, why should gods be any different? Is killing animals ok but not gods? What if another animal kills a god, are they in the wrong too?

I don't want to say the article is shallow, but the presentation of the themes feels superficial. I don't particularly care for stories that simply drop a theme and don't bother to expand on it. The piece should gave the reader something to think on, not just have them do all the work.

Not too keen on the Jesus allegory, either. Not because of having NotJesus himself, but because the image of a superhuman with glowing eyes takes away from what is otherwise a Lovecraftian entity. Not to mention that its entire role seems to be giving exposition at the end.

Reluctant downvote, but I feel like there's a good base here. The history table is where the article shone the most.

Grigori Karpin 27 Nov 2019 18:45

First of all, thank you for reading and your input.

-B is not supposed to be Jesus, just FYI… Also what exposition does -B give?

Much of the exploration of the theme is supposed to be vague, as I didn’t want to get into exposition dumps anymore than I already had… my overall thoughts about it were less about reverence in regards to a god and more to a passed loved one, but I understand your point.

+ Spoilers

-A is representative of a species unknown, which had the ability to manipulate energies (including thaumaturgy) you’ll notice in the footnote I talk about akiva radiation as a quantification of prime thaumaturgical force, stating it has been controversially called the evidence of divine grace. In my head gods are biological entities that are just capable of manipulating this prime thaumaturgical force to a much greater degree than people could even through study/runes/rituals.

-A was intimately involved in the creation of the solar system, tasked with making sure various systems such as ecology and weather systems worked properly. It stuck around while it’s Siblings took off, and got very interested in developing organisms like people… but like all parents looking down on the next generation, -A had a different sort of idea of how they should behave. It saw the increasing technological and anomalous abilities as a threat to the survival of the species, so it stepped in from time to time.

-A made -B by manipulating the genetic code of an anatomically modern (but very ancient) human baby… so it could have eyes on the ground, and agent to be involved in the perspective of humans.

Dr. Varga is uninterested in the discussion of deities. She thinks this is an interesting subject to be treated as any new species would be. This one is just more anomalous than a new species of crab or wolf. You can see this in her interaction with the POI and in that footnote I mentioned above, also in that she wishes to test the genetic material in more experimental ways.

The serpents hand and -B think this is something more to be revered, both for their own reasons. But the idea that -B lashed out at the occultists was one of mourning. How badly someone freaks out when they lose a loved one.

-B doesn’t kill Douglas because he doesn’t see anything wrong with investigating the body of his father. -B thinks progress is inevitable, and does not share the perspective of his papa. In that way he’s fairly rebellious, as he has not been running around for the last 200 years fucking with human progress (given the incredible leaps we have made since the industrial revolution)

Also it’s been enough time, he’s moved on. What he doesn’t approve of is the using of his father’s body as some sort of ritual, as that would be a desecration. Not of a god but of his family.

Thus, the dichotomy is this: push forward progress at whatever the cost (as is almost always the case) vs. treating the dead with respect. The fact that the dead in this story is, or was, a god is of secondary concern.

Hope this clarified or at least was interesting.
Thanks for reading!

Last edited on 27 Nov 2019 23:36 by Grigori Karpin Show more

augmentedspartan 29 Nov 2019 06:03

Whoops, my bad about -B. Although in my defense, Son of God is a pretty famous figure what with Christianity and all.

What I mean by him being expositiony is that he doesn't feel like a character to me. When he shows up, all he does is say how disturbed he is at his father's death and kills the cultists. There isn't anything for me to empathize with, because a character isn't a real person, so I need something more than just one scene of them being affected by a sad event.

The other thing is that, unless it went over my head which is very possible, I didn't get that bit about them creating the solar system or being an entire species. There was just the description of the one and what the cult did to it. I don't think vague themes work when the theme itself requires a lot of discussion and analysis. Just dropping it on the reader's lap doesn't really do anything because I can get the same experience without reading the piece and just mulling over a concept that is pretty common.

The interview kinda highlights this. The discussion is just two or three lines, which doesn't really say anything constructive on the matter, and the Dr. not being interested in it doesn't really help. She's not a person, but a character which can be written in any way. Having her be interested in the concept enough to discuss it is something you can do as the author, which would help bring forth the themes.

As it is, for me the story feels superficial, because the characters don't feel like real people which means there isn't enough for me to connect with, and when one of the themes is loss or family relationships, that lack of connection kills the narrative for me. The themes of divinity vs common entities need further exploration to really feel worthwhile.

The best bit of the article was hands down the history table. That, I felt, did make the main idea shine brighter because I could see the connection between the entity and the concept of divinity and scientific degradation. I understood the effect of the reverence towards the entity and its role in history without any need of dialogue, and I do think the piece would be better if it focused more on the effects it had on history and told the story indirectly through that.

Grigori Karpin 03 Dec 2019 02:46

Well, no you didn’t miss anything I just thought I’d give you some background into my head canon…

And this is probably a preference thing, so I appreciate not everyone is gonna enjoy my work.

But I absolutely despise when everything is spelled out for me in a story, especially a short story… horror for me is only catching glimpses, and I think that can work for a contemplative piece as well.

In fact, I wanted much of what you find lacking to be left open to interpretation or filling in by the reader. I wanted someone to read this and ask themselves many of the questions you are contemplating in your critique.

So honestly, it still feels like a success even with your downvote.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, also. No sarcasm, it was legitimately interesting to examine my work through your critiques.

Last edited on 03 Dec 2019 02:46 by Grigori Karpin Show more

augmentedspartan 07 Dec 2019 19:50

But I absolutely despise when everything is spelled out for me in a story, especially a short story… horror for me is only catching glimpses, and I think that can work for a contemplative piece as well.

Oh, yes, I agree, but to me this piece felt less like horror and more like contemplative fiction. When using a fictional story to explore complex themes, I prefer it when the story gives a lot of different views but also explains how one could come up with such view. So the questioning comes less about the concept itself, but the different interpretations of said concept.

So honestly, it still feels like a success even with your downvote.

That's good. A single negative opinion shouldn't stop you from appreciating your own work. Plus, even if I don't like this particular piece, contrasting views can always make for interesting new art, so the next article could be the one that wins me over.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, also. No sarcasm, it was legitimately interesting to examine my work through your critiques.

No problem. I wanted to give my opinion because I enjoyed certain aspects of the article, so for me it wasn't "a bad" article, just not my thing overall.

Nowhere Man 15 Dec 2019 01:19

Why is the decline of Sumer listed so far back? Is this part of the anomaly or is there another reason?

Grigori Karpin 15 Dec 2019 08:18

Yea, that was a typo

Thank you for pointing it out

Last edited on 15 Dec 2019 08:22 by Grigori Karpin Show more

Heckspress 18 Dec 2019 19:32

i cant believe they killed eldritch ted kaczynski :( +1

---

pepsi > coke, on God

J Dune 29 Aug 2020 05:07

I definitely would've explored the historical context of the entity, but in a way it ties together with the theme of a "god" losing importance until it becomes just another animal for someone to experiment on.

I think elaborating on the appearance of the anomaly during times of progress would've accentuated your intent here, especially because I was confused as to whether or not the entity had a negative reaction to progress, or if it was triggering periods of technological progression.

Either way, I very much enjoyed this, and I'm looking forward to checking out the rest of your interconnected articles.

Grigori Karpin 29 Aug 2020 10:21

Thank you very much and it’s definitely something I intend to explore in tales and potentially other skips…

I’ve considered going back in and exploring it further here, but I feel like the taste of knowledge is better for a first “chapter”. Also, I wanted it a bit nebulous re: what 4612-A was doing in these periods, as in my head it was interfering in a lot of ways, both instigating and holding back technological progress. It has its own ideas about how humanity should behave, and like many a bad “parent” it didn’t bother to explain just came in to punish without trying to teach. In many ways that’s why it’s “son” changes his MO by the modern day.

this was very much my first attempt at writing for the wiki, and it shows (at least in my eyes)

Thank you for the kind words :)

Last edited on 29 Aug 2020 10:24 by Grigori Karpin Show more

Krios-ego 25 Jan 2021 12:03

I really like this the dialogue and the story is very fun and engaging BUT there are two things that really bug me

1. The historical section
NO the early middle ages did NOT saw a "decline" in technology and values thats a stereotype with zero basis in reality and every serious historian cringes in the mere sight of it early medieval people had the same technology that ancient people had and even improved on it and would even start to surpass it in the high middle ages if there was a "decline" in the early middle ages that would be on urban cultural centricity and the aqueduct were not adandoned there simply wasnt much use for them (why would you spend so much money to build an aqueduct to pump water in your city of that city doesn't have that many people living in it?) This would ofcourse change in the high middle ages were there would be a population boom

2. That photo for the entrance to the underground vault does NOT fit at all that photo is an house door in mykonos and it clashes with the design of the house

HarryBlank 25 Jan 2021 22:52

1. Every serious historian cringes at the term "every serious historian."
2. Nuance is possible. I've never read a credible history that suggested there was no decline in technology after the fall of the Roman empire, merely that the decline was seriously exaggerated for political/religious reasons. The revised timeline merely suggests that the decline was less precipitous, and less long-lasting, than previously believed. Knowledge was temporarily diffused, and serious economic and political problems starting in antiquity came to a head. If there's a complaint to be made here, it's about the use of the term "Dark Ages" which is, in fact, not in currency and should go.
3. I believe the contrast with the vault door was intentional.

Edit: holy hell I did NOT know Grigori was also writing a response hahaha

Last edited on 25 Jan 2021 22:54 by HarryBlank Show more

Grigori Karpin 25 Jan 2021 22:52

1) We’ll just have to agree to disagree. But don’t make it sound like this is the only answer, it’s a legit point of contention among historical scholars of the area.

Also this is a story. Suspend disbelief. Maybe this report was written by someone who isn’t a historian (Varga is a Xenobiologist and geneticist)

2) it’s meant to look out of place.

Thanks for reading

Last edited on 25 Jan 2021 22:54 by Grigori Karpin Show more

Rounderhouse 27 Mar 2021 20:45

The atmosphere in this is tight. You really get a distinct vibe for 'moldy tomb gothic' throughout this, particularly in the description. The clinical tone is also tight, although I feel like it strays a bit too verbose at times. It's not really often enough to matter significantly, though. Mostly the language and terminology is really strong.

My main dislikes were A) the dialogue in the PoI interview - the log with Eckhart is w/e because they're all from like 300 years ago so of course they talk sort of stilted and weird but the pacing and wording of the PoI log weirds me out. It's almost wooden with ill-fitting patches of melodrama - "what species is a god?", etc.

B) This may just be because I'm stupid but I didn't really grok what -B's purpose or presence in the article was for. As in, I don't understand who he is or what he is or whatever, I just kind of saw him show up to murder everyone and bring the plot to a neat close. Which isn't bad! It just kind of blindsided me because, again, this may just be me, but I don't understand what he is in relation to the rest of the article.

C) I also think you kind of meandered your way to the core of the article - the themes of, well, do gods decay? what rights do we people have to meddle in the celestial? Like, the genetic composition log and the whole thing with conducting energy through the crystals feels completely disparate from the rest of the article's story, unless i'm missing something.

nitpicks are Daveite and I think you could go through for a punctuation pass, I noticed a couple of awkward commas and absentee periods throughout the logs.