SCP-2358 / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page SCP-2358.

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Decibelles 05 Jun 2015 19:54

I'm not sure what's going on here. I also think this is stretching the "antimeme" kinda far, as each skip or tale involving the use of antimemes prior to this either equate to not being able to remember something at all, or destroying information. This… seems to do neither? It just sends people into a catatonic state if they perceive it, and the letters afterward are gibberish to me.

Also, wouldn't this image affect you since you're able to perceive it? Or does it not extend to drawings of it? How can you even draw it if it's an antimeme?

Thekillerax 05 Jun 2015 20:14

From what I understand, the general gist of it is this; the trees started out as memetic anomalies that would rapidly grow when not observed by humans, but when observed by humans would shrink and at the same time infiltrate the human's brain, doing its memetic magic in their mind and killing them. The implication is that the trees purposely grew in certain ways to maximize the amount of humans that saw it, so it could take root in as many minds as possible. Then someone working at the antimemetics department managed to attach some sort of filter/antimeme/antimemetic filter to the trees, making it so humans could still sorta perceive it- enough to the point where the tree's growth is halted but not enough so that the trees could infiltrate the person's mind. The Foundation worker moved the trees to corwded areas so their growth would be constantly held in check, some antimemetic stuff happened to the worker who did it, and now the Foundation doesn't remember the truth behind the trees, and so they just leave them be.

---

And if the whole world is crashing down… fall through space out of mind with me.

HotCocoaNerd 05 Jun 2015 20:19

^ Listen to this guy.

Decibelles 05 Jun 2015 20:46

Eh, but it still doesn't do anything special; then it's just another memetic thing what kills you, and doesn't have that something that the other antimemetic skips or tales had to make it unique.

sirpudding 05 Jun 2015 21:04

The interesting thing here isn't the anomaly itself, it is what the Counterconceptual Division did to contain it, and what it now looks like to the Foundation at large as a result.

Decibelles 05 Jun 2015 21:08

Fair enough, though the core concept of how antimemetics are in use here bothers me enough to keep a downvote regardless.

Authorative thingamajig.

HotCocoaNerd 05 Jun 2015 20:18

Thank you to Delliott and Goomy for looking this over. Special thanks to qntm for inspiring and reviewing this.

Explanation.

The antimemetic part of the anomaly is that it's impossible to see and remember seeing the trees without a dose of mnestics in your system. This effect was caused by the antimemetic perception filter that the CC division applied. The weird "see trees everywhere" effect was the original effect from before they were hidden. The filter doesn't apply to painting of the trees (which is why there can be an image, they had an artistic D-Class do a painting after seeing the tree) but does apply to photos.

The Counterconceptual Division is a bit of mischief qntm and I cooked up. They serve the same basic purpose that the Antimemetic Department serves. Why do two divisions exist that do the same job? They can't remember each other.

Re: Authorative thingamajig.

sirpudding 05 Jun 2015 20:22

Yet they have the same department head. I wonder if she remembers both of them…

Anyway, this is the best one (after 55). I love it when I have to make a deduction to figure out a thing. Have all my upvotes (1 memetic and the set of uncountable sets antimemetic upvotes).

Last edited on 05 Jun 2015 20:25 by sirpudding Show more

Re: Authorative thingamajig.

HotCocoaNerd 05 Jun 2015 20:25

Look closely. Same initials, different names.

Re: Authorative thingamajig.

sirpudding 05 Jun 2015 20:26

Ooh.. Dashed cunning.

WrongJohnSilver 05 Jun 2015 20:27

Cute Pitch Haven reference, by the way.

Petrograd 06 Jun 2015 01:36

I'm just not buying this one.

As others have said, the outcomes of the memetic effects (If not the mechanism) are pretty boring and nothing new. Put me in mind of SCP-1008, actually.

The object-which-must-must-be-perceived-or-grows was more interesting as the bird on the cereal box.

Ultimately, similar to sirpudding's comment, the only interesting thing about this is the prior containment and its aftereffects, and they just don't stand out for me. Particularly, why did the Foundation forget the prior containment? The anti-meme keeps people from storing perceptions of the trees, not secondary information about them, or neither the current nor the past documentation would be here.

Also, I love antimemetics. I loved 055, I loved the A-M department article that started the recent resurgence, and i love the extinct horizon guardians. But I feel like if I see another article cautioning against civilian mnestics in the containment procedures, my head is going to explode.

-1

Last edited on 06 Jun 2015 02:06 by Petrograd Show more

HotCocoaNerd 06 Jun 2015 02:27

1) Huh, hadn't seen 1008 before, interesting read. The effects were mostly just my expounding on the concept of what happens after an idea is "planted" in your head.

2) Bird on the cereal box?

3) For the same reason that there's no records of the CC division, they were dealing with trying to contain several antimemes, many of which have detrimental effects on information.

4) Nice to see another anitmemetics fan. I'm sorry that the procedures frustrated you, I had tried to form the most logical set that I could. Do you have an alternate suggestion for what I might try in the containment procedures?

Thekillerax 06 Jun 2015 02:51

The bird on the cereal box is SCP-1160 btw

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And if the whole world is crashing down… fall through space out of mind with me.

Petrograd 06 Jun 2015 05:20

Thanks killerax!

I don't really have a constructive alternative, sadly.

Non-constructive opinion.

I think I find it frustrating because, in my headcanon, mnestics are super rare and not well known even within the Foundation, and that civilians developing them is either many decades off or something that is being handled on a much higher covert level than a single containment procedure.

Actually, now that I've written that… I'd be more comfortable with that line if you made up a project name or MTF whose job that was. Just something to indicate that it's an ongoing, existing effort.

As for the rest, thanks for your response.

The aftereffects make sense for the context, they just don't stand out.

As far as the CC division, then, I would be more interested if there was some indication of what happened to them. I understand why that statement is contradictory and unrealistic, but given that (For me) they're the driving force here then I would like to see more of them.

Edit: Also, the exact text replication on the effects is a little odd, unless the current procedure is actually a fragment of the old documentation?

Last edited on 06 Jun 2015 08:25 by Petrograd Show more

HotCocoaNerd 06 Jun 2015 13:37

1) MTF added.

2) I won't add anymore here, but I mat develop them in more pieces later on.

3) In-universe, the writers alread had the phrasing in their mind after reading the original document, so that influenced them in a non-anomalous but still memetic way. Out-of-universe, it's meant to reflect a trend that Antimemetics seems to include a lot of going in circles and events playing out over and over and over and over…

Hawkforce1 03 Aug 2015 21:39

Correct me if I'm wrong, but,
amnestics are the things that get rid of memories and mnestics do… about the opposite, right?

---

HF1

HotCocoaNerd 03 Aug 2015 22:03

That is correct.

Mr_stickman 06 Jun 2015 08:37

Downvoted because the image is too obviously photoshopped for me to take it seriously.

sirpudding 06 Jun 2015 08:40

How do you know that the artist didn't use photoshop? Also why would you expect any specially high level of artistic skill from a convicted mass murderer or North Korean political prisoner or whatever. If anything the image is too good.

Last edited on 06 Jun 2015 16:05 by sirpudding Show more

Mr_stickman 06 Jun 2015 08:47

EDIT On a second read I've removed my downvote.

Last edited on 06 Jun 2015 08:49 by Mr_stickman Show more

Professor Will 06 Jun 2015 13:53

The fact that you've seen the tree in person means that you're going to die soon anyway, but the amnestics should be able to buy you a few extra hours.

This might be scarier if you removed the "in person" and implied that the artists depiction was hazardous and the reader is in danger.

Just a thought.
_{Just a thought.}

TL333s 06 Jun 2015 17:47

I'm glad there was the whole antimeme addendum angle to this, or it wouldn't have been as interesting. That said, I feel like it's not doing anything new with the concept, which I've already seen presented quite well in tales.

Decibelles 07 Jun 2015 21:20

Removed "keter" tag, because this skip isn't actually Keter. Look at SCP-1451, which uses a similar "SCP document from some other mysterious place" trope, where the Euclid object is actually implied to be Keter… but it's not Keter in-universe. It's also not like SCP-1500, where the bait-and-switch of Safe to Keter allows for both a Keter and a Safe tag.

HotCocoaNerd 07 Jun 2015 22:33

Okay, sorry about the misunderstanding.

DrippingPitch 03 Aug 2015 05:38

Did anyone else bother looking at the letters in the cognitohazard?

+

the palladin and the pawn belong to us

OZ Ouroboros 03 Aug 2015 06:17

It's a reference to another great piece in a great canon. :3

sirpudding 03 Aug 2015 15:09

Wow how did I miss that? Authors, is this just a shoutout or has Clovis has infiltrated the CD?

Fantem 03 Aug 2015 18:00

*shrugs*

I wasn't told how it fits in, so I can't really say.

HotCocoaNerd 03 Aug 2015 18:02

That was more me complimenting the other piece and looking for a cool phrase rather than crosslinking.

Decibelles 03 Aug 2015 22:14

For the record, mnestics is not a typo. It's the opposite of amnestics, in a sense. Its usage here warrants mnesitcs. If you're not sure, ask the author, as I'm 99.999% sure Fae meant it like mnestics.

Last edited on 03 Aug 2015 22:15 by Decibelles Show more

HotCocoaNerd 03 Aug 2015 23:14

I did mean to put "mnestics" with an "m".

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