Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Summary:

Revised pitch that should be more fitting, and is not obscenely long.

Tale/Narrative Idea

TheSandwichMan 30 May 2020 11:30

Seeking Greenlights: Yes

Page Type: Tale

Genre: Drama/Emotional

Elevator Pitch: An interview between an idealistic anomalous researcher and a rational non-anomalous security agent, with the purpose of exposing the dangerous irony in employing anomalous staff. The security officer will provide proof of wrong doing on the researcher's part, but the researcher will prove the effectiveness of their methods.

Central Narrative: The researcher met with MC&D agents to acquire a mundane SCP, referred to as SCP-████, without the Foundation's direct knowledge. The security staff are told only to hold the researcher in an interview room while the event was reviewed. One particular officer takes issue with the leniency the order shows, and takes the opportunity to prove that anomalies are too dangerous to employ. The researcher will rebuff with arguments of empathy and efficiency. The officer will view the researcher's actions as dangerous to the Foundation, but the researcher will see their actions as a check to the Foundation's policies in the aspiration of the Foundation's goals.

The interview will have been removed from SCP-████'s documents, however security and maintenance staff have requested that it remain on file within the Foundation. (The idea being that the lower-level staff hold it as important.)

Hook/Attention Grabber: Using the acquisition of a minor SCP to setup a conversation about deeper civil issues within the Foundation, and two clashing philosophies over the issues presented. The officer will seem to clearly be in the right at the start, but as the researcher explains themselves it starts to raise questions on whether the Foundation's methods might actually be causing problem for themselves.

Additional Notes: This narrative is supposed to elicited feelings of injustice and mismanagement on the Foundation's part. The argument is being had between someone powerless speaking from reason, and someone powerful speaking idealistically. I'm currently working the most on keeping this feeling without outright making the Foundation look foolish or behave in ways that don't fit their MO.

Last edited on 08 Jun 2020 21:35 by TheSandwichMan Show more

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea

Malkaz 31 May 2020 14:24

Hi, I find your idea very interesting, but I did get confused, are they discussing whether anomalities are real? or are they discussing if its ethical or responsible to use staff that have anomalities? I find this to be very interesting, I want to keep politics and controversial opinions out of this, but I couldn't help myself but notice a correlation between idealistic people with power in our world who don't see the obvious mistreatment of minority groups in the workplace. I am interested to see how this story turns out and see what talking points or they tackle in their conversation.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea

TheSandwichMan 31 May 2020 14:32

It's about the ethics of using and/or allowing anomalous personnel to operate and sometimes be given special treatment within the foundation. I think the political correlation you find comes from people with power creating idealistic views, both in and outside of fiction. Although I plan for a much more fictional slant of course.

Re: SCP/Narrative Idea - One Hot Scarf

The Pighead 30 May 2020 19:59

Hello, author, Pighead In. Let's take a look at this idea. And I will keep this short, because I just realize that I can summarize this in a short way.

I like this pitch and this narrative pretty much. I mean, it's pretty much classic but this is something that I find personally enjoyable, for what is related to my own tastes. And I want to see what you can do with this, with an idea like that, the execution will be the main thing for that. Plus, you seem to know what you had planned, which is a bonus.

But, at the end, I can't greenlight. For a simple reason : this is labelled as an SCP article. And, let me be clear, I absolutely don't care about the skip. Its pretty bland and seems pretty overpowered and, for what I see, it's absolutely not the thing that interest you and it's understandable. So, I strongly recommand you to turn this into a Tale, because it will fit your narrative much better than the SCP Article format. Oh, and don't forget to ask another reviewers for crit (especially the ones at the Butterfly Squad). For the rest, it's all for me, Pighead Out.

Re: SCP/Narrative Idea - One Hot Scarf

TheSandwichMan 30 May 2020 20:31

That's a very valid point, and you're not the first one to bring it up. I think you're right that I care too little about the object itself as is. There are two reasons I want it to be an SCP article over a tale. Firstly I like the idea of using a minor/mundane SCP to frame a deeper story about the foundation; and secondly I like the idea of a mostly unrelated interview being kept up by the "working" class of the foundation, a group I feel gets over looked a lot.

Do you think a more interesting SCP could help either of those two points, or in your opinion should I scrap the whole SCP device and do a more detailed tale about the topic?

Either way thank you for the feedback.

Last edited on 30 May 2020 20:32 by TheSandwichMan Show more

Re: SCP/Narrative Idea - One Hot Scarf

Flopmind 30 May 2020 23:31

Firstly, the scp itself is not overpowered, so don't worry about that, but I do agree that it doesn't really stand out compared to other skips.

Secondly, and more importantly, I do think that this should be a tale, for one simple reason, none of this conflict would actually make it into a technical document at the scp foundation, that's not the purpose of technical writing. I like the idea of looking at the "working class" of the foundation and the framing of a deeper conflict within it, but you don't need to write an SCP article to do that, and, even if you did, not everyone would consider it canon anyway. That's just not how things are done here.

Re: SCP/Narrative Idea - One Hot Scarf

TheSandwichMan 31 May 2020 12:56

I've revised the whole idea to be a tale now. I think it will work better this way, I just particularly liked the idea of using an SCP as a framing device for the narrative. But this should both read, write, and feel much cleaner now. Let me know what you guys think about it.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

The Pighead 02 Jun 2020 19:03

The author had summoned me by PM, so here I come.

And because the changes I've suggested had been made (especially the fact to turn the narrative into a Tale), there's now no flaw for me in that idea. And I'm still really interested enough for wanting to see a draft of that. So, here's now a enthusiastic greenlight!

Congrats, author! Now, you will need another one for using the Drafts Forum. For having this last one (and another pieces of advice), contact another reviewers (especially the Butterfly Squad ones). And for the rest, it's all for me, Pighead Out.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 02 Jun 2020 21:55

I seriously appreciate you taking another look at it! And thank you for the greenlight. Time to start hunting for another.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

caspian2 03 Jun 2020 13:36

Summoned via PM.

Hi TheSandwichMan, let’s take a look at your Tale/Narrative Idea.

so a researcher and security guard walk into a room…

So maybe it’s because of your limited word count, but I don’t see any narrative right now within your base concept.

You have two main characters, one a researcher who has messed up. Okay, there’s some backstory there. The other character is a security guard who… doesn’t like being told to do his job? I don’t understand his motivation for getting into this argument with the researcher in the first place?

Even taking the researcher as an example here… what’s his position on the Foundation? It’s confusing because you’ve deliberately muddled it up by putting him in trouble with this MC&D subplot. So now that he’s gotten into trouble with his superiors, is arguing for/against the Foundation’s operations?

The feeling of power will shift through the conversation. The officer will be speaking from reason, but as the conversation moves forward it will be harder for the officer (and hopefully the reader) to directly disagree with the researcher and their actions.

Perhaps if you could break down each character with more specificity, the spine of the Tale would make more sense to me. Vague statements like “the feeling of power will shift” does not tell us how or why it shifts. Also, any argument that convinces the reader will be considered “from reason”. However, what matters here is what arguments these characters will be making.

The argument is being had between someone powerless speaking from reason, and someone powerful speaking idealistically.

You’ve got the themes down, which are fine as overall goals. But themes alone don’t automatically translate into a narrative. Tell us more about who your characters are, why they're behaving this way, and what their goals are in this current situation.

Cheers and I hope you can elaborate a little more on the concept!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 03 Jun 2020 14:06

While I don't disagree with you that good characterization will be needed for this concept to work, I've left it somewhat vague currently as certain plot points may need to be changed or shifted to keep the tone without sacrificing the foundation's MO. My original plot had the researcher going far beyond what would ever be accepted by the foundation, my aim is to have the researcher walking a grey line in the foundation. Things about both characters, including traits and positions in the foundation may need to be changed down the road. If it helps to put like this; the officer's goal is to prove that anomalous staff are far to dangerous to be allowed to work for the Foundation, while the researcher's goal is to convince the officer that being anomalous doesn't remove something's humanity. The ultimate goal for me is a stalemate end where neither side is proven wrong, nor is either side proven more right than the other.

As a blanket statement currently, the researcher is an arrogant, idealistic person that believe sometimes things need to be handled differently to meet the foundations end goal. While the officer is more realistic and feels alone in the irony of the foundation using anomalous staff. To sort of rephrase what you said, he's not mad to be doing his job, he's mad that he's not doing his job. He feels the researcher is getting special treatment, and that anomalous staff member are often treated with more leniency.

You are right in that word count played a big part in what made it in. I had an early draft that was much lengthier and went on about the narrative but I cut it to more thematical elements then raw plot points. I felt the theme was what was important to keep, as I'm sure the narrative itself is going to shift to keep said theme and the importance of the conversation being had.

Either way I truly appreciate you taking a look. I think you are completely correct that character and motivation will really sell the end product. Personally I have more confidence in my characterization abilities than my short hand writing ability. But I know that doesn't mean much. I hope this helped clear something things, and thank you for looking it over.

Last edited on 06 Jun 2020 15:21 by TheSandwichMan Show more

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

caspian2 07 Jun 2020 15:20

Responding to PM:

Hi again,

Thanks for elaborating further. I don't know, man. While the structure is sound, I don't see any big appeal to wanting to read the tale you've described. Surely it's an important topic to discuss, the themes and questions you seek to raise entirely relevant for discussion.

But there's just no spark or big conflict, if you catch my drift? Perhaps if you could elaborate on what the SCP they're fighting over is / what the big debate is over its treatment, that might give the Tale some teeth. I know you stated above that you wanted the SCP to be mundane and ordinary. Then the question again would be: wouldn't the debate surrounding the SCP then also be the same? If there aren't any big stakes in a story, why bother writing it?

Again, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as overly harsh. I encourage you to continue working on it and of course to seek other reviewers' opinions. Cheers and all the best!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 07 Jun 2020 15:57

Actually I think that is a very good point, and explains some of the issues I've been running into with some test drafts. I think I really need to get more concrete on the big issues and the sharper points.

The mundane nature of the SCP is there specifically not to take center stage over the story. It's so mundane that it's not really worth discussing at length, but the officer uses the opportunity to confront the researcher on something they feel is an issue within the foundation.

It's definitely not an action packed narrative, as no one will live or die based on it. I think the areas covered in the conversation could be a little more gripping and I think that's where I'm going to put my focus for now.

As always I really appreciate you taking a look, and feel free to be as harsh as you want. :)

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Comrade Waldo 07 Jun 2020 23:59

Hello TheSandwichMan, how's it going?
I'm going to take a look at your idea tale.

This will be a short critique because I already see a well-developed narrative. You could say these are minor concerns. I suggest you change the security guard to an Ethics Committee member since it would be more logical because they're specialized in these topics. Also, why did the researcher decided to met with MC&D agents to obtain a minor SCP without Foundation consent, it doesn't seem rational? Maybe if it's a secret agent of the Chaos Insurgency or the Serpents Hand. Anyways, those are my concerns. If you clarify these points I told you, you can send me a PM and I'll tell you what I think.

P.D: I don't have greenlight privilege, so don't expect one from me.
Good luck, and keep writing!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 08 Jun 2020 00:28

I think those are both decent concerns to have, especially with the lack of smaller narrative details as is in the proposal right now. But I actually do have reasons behind my choices for both of them.

First I specifically have it as a security officer as it would be someone that could be considered "blue-collar" by Foundation standards; as well as being someone who could realistically have access to the researcher after the preceding event. I think an Ethics Committee member would be either too ingrained into the administration of the Foundation, or would be unwilling to waver on the Foundations ideology.

As for the researcher keeping quiet to the Foundation, a major part of the researcher's argument will be around their actions being for the Foundations goals even when breaking Foundation rules. Part of that argument will be about the relationships between the Foundation and groups like MC&D that hold no true stakes in the public's knowledge of anomalies. The researcher will claim the meeting was for diplomacy with MC&D and not for personal gain, and will tout the SCP recovered as proof of diplomacy with such groups being effective.

I appreciate the critique regardless of any greenlighting abilities. Even if it's small concerns it can point out issues I don't see for myself. So thanks a bunch for taking a look!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Comrade Waldo 10 Jun 2020 19:44

[Responding by contact through PM]

First of all, sorry for taking a lot of time for not reviewing your response. I was busy checking other concepts and asking for help in my own project. Anyways, you gave justification for the use of a guard instead of an Ethics Committee member, and the purpose of the researcher keeping quiet. I suggest you add what's going to be the punishment of the researcher. Thanks for clarifying the points I made. You don't need to edit your post since you already have two greenlights.

Good luck, and keep writing!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 10 Jun 2020 19:47

Actually I only have the one greenlight so far as I know. But I'm glad I was able to clear things up!

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Naveil 10 Jun 2020 19:56

Responding to PM Request - will crit soon

---

Right, so this type of article works much better in practice (although it doesn't really help that some parts need elaboration), but I do like the premise you're setting up here. I could be a very solid tale, but some things need ironing out.

First off, the format. It's described as an interview, but I'm confused as to what that entails. It's obviously an interview contextually, but is it in format? If that's a yes, I'm not all too sure it could work, and you might just be better of with standard formatting. That's neither here nor there, though.

Another thing I'm apprehensive on is the catalyst for the tale, which is the deal with SCP-████. I understand you need some kind of starter for the main butt of the tale, but I'm not really a fan of redactions in general. Idk, once again, it might work better in practice, but having any existing SCP in place of the blackboxes would make a world of difference.

That's about it. I'll hold back on a greenlight for now, but there definitely is potential here for something interesting.

Last edited on 12 Jun 2020 15:44 by Naveil Show more

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Zoobeeny 11 Jun 2020 02:38

Responding to PM. Apologies for the delay.

So, I’m fine with the overall narrative, however, I do have some small gripes with this tale from the responses you’ve given to the other comments.

+ show block

1. The researcher claiming that MC&D don’t hold stakes in the public knowledge of anomalies is true, but that’s not the problem that the Foundation has with them. The Foundation doesn’t want anomalous goods in the hands of people or dangerous individuals like the Chaos Insurgency. Thus, diplomacy isn’t an option.

1. I’m also not sure that MC&D really peddle in “mundane” anomalous objects, though I could be wrong

1. What exactly is the “Foundation’s end goal”? I was under the impression that the Foundation was attempting to contain all anomalies from the rest of humanity, knowing that this would be a never-ending battle.

1. I don’t quite see the Foundation giving special permission treatment to researchers, even if they are anomalous. Especially if you’re going off something akin to the Resurrection Canon, the Foundation is especially concerned about anomalous researchers, so much so, that I can’t quite see this researcher being able to get in contact with a known hostile group like MC&D. The majority of writers on this site already know not to write SCPs that receive special treatment as that is frowned upon by the readers, so this would likely extend to writing about anomalous researchers with special treatment.

1. With all this in mind, what exactly is the debate between the officer and the researcher? From what I understand, it’s about anomalous researcher’s having too much leeway, but with what I’ve outlined already, this is in fact, a correct statement. No researcher should have that much leeway, so what arguments do you plan to use to back up the researcher’s position?

I’d also advise you try your best to not sound preachy, as that can quickly become irritating to the readers.

Ultimately, I personally think this is pretty interesting, but the issues I’ve listed above are withholding a greenlight from me.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

TheSandwichMan 11 Jun 2020 15:54

I'm going to try and answer this as concisely as possible, but I apologize if I end up over explaining.

Responses

1.The researcher's point is not that the Foundation is wrong about MC&D purpose, but that MC&D's goal is money and not people's awareness. The Foundation is aggressive towards MC&D because they could sell to a dangerous counter group, but the researcher is arguing that diplomacy is a better solution than aggression.

2. I think MC&D peddles whatever they can sell. They sell pets and household anomalies as well as the dangerous ones.

3. You're right in that the Foundation has a never ending battle ahead of them, but at the same time their "end goal" in this context would be the proper containment of all anomalies. I mean you were right it was just confusing wording on my end.

4.This is hard to argue against, mainly because that's the major issue covered. I know their day has past, but I definitely feel like characters like Bright or Clef were treated in a way that really gave them special treatment. At least at times, not always. The security officer in this story is using this chance to prove exactly what you're arguing. My hope is to have readers relate and agree with the security officer in the beginning, but question things by the very end.

5.That's a little harder to answers concisely, but to give a rough idea the officer is looking for something to go "see, this person shouldn't be working here". They're trying to get the researcher to self-incriminate basically. While the researcher will argue that their results out weigh their wrong doings. To use the event in the story, the researcher went to a meeting with a dangerous group without the Foundation's knowledge, but returned with an anomaly as well as potential contacts that could lead to the containment of future anomalies. It went against the Foundation's rules, but in the end turned out more helpful to the Foundation.

I plan for the researcher to be a little preachy, specifically to irritate the officer and the reader, but the narrative itself is going to be more impartial.

I always appreciate it when someone gives my work a look so thank you for that. I honestly find it a little reassuring that some of your issues are close to the issues I'm wanting the reader to see.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Zoobeeny 13 Jun 2020 20:37

From what you seem to be saying, you want the researcher to argue the case of "the ends justify the means" which not only has been done a lot, but is also a very weak argument.

Next, after reading more about MC&D, I can see that the only way to deal with MC&D would be diplomacy due to the sheer political power they hold.

The main issue is the idea that I can't see the researcher's argument having any backing if the reader thinks a bit more. The potential risks attached with allowing such privilege to researchers would allow for much larger security breaches, which in the end, would defeat the purpose of the Foundation.

Take the hypothetical example that the Foundation allows this leniency to the researcher. What happens to researchers that are swayed to assist the Chaos Insurgency? or the Serpents Hand? Massive containment breaches would occur and the Foundation would be damaged incredibly.

Honestly, I don't think the current debate between characters is strong enough as a moral quandary to hold up the tale.

Re: Tale/Narrative Idea - Ethics of Anomalous Staff Members

Sonderance 14 Jun 2020 07:33

Placeholder! Got summoned via PM to take a look-see. Will crit in a bit.

Alright, here’s my take.

+ show block

My initial criticism is one that I can see has been brought up quite a bit so far. No matter how useful a reseacher’s anomalous nature may be, I can’t imagine that an unapproved liaison with one of the more politically powerful of the world’s GoIs would be met with a slap on the wrist. I can understand the metaphor for privilege you’re trying to establish here, but that strains the correlation.

In addition, I’m not seeing many actual details of the two sides of this ‘debate’. Anything this philosophically focused needs to be fully laid out so we can tell that there’s sufficient narratival tension to justify an entire tale being written around it, and I’m not seeing that yet. What’s the actual, step-by-step process of this ‘debate’, and why should we care about the outcome?

If you respond to this comment and would like me to see it, please send me a Wikidot PM, as I will not be notified otherwise.

Last edited on 16 Jun 2020 08:12 by Sonderance Show more